New boot "stance" question

[BenedictGomez]

I have a question on stance in new boots that I'm having a tough time finding an answer for online.

In my (very) old boots I could pretty much stand perfectly upright in them, just like gym sneakers or shoes, even when they were in ski mode and not walk mode. These were Salomon Evolution 9's.

In a new pair of Dolomite boots that feel like they fit perfectly, I dont stand upright, but pitched a bit forward with knees slightly bent. It's not a dramatic bend like a sitting down golf stance, but a clear bend that is almost like I'm already skiing just by standing in the boots.

My question is, is that proper of not?


I mean, I can see how that would help bring the hands forward, but I dont want to be on something clearly wrong if it is. It's a dramatic change in "resting stance" or what you might call "lift line stance" from my Salomons just by standing in the boots, but for all I know, maybe the perfectly upright nature of the Salomon's was wrong. It's funny, I've skied most of my life and have never thought about crap like this before! :-(

 

[deadheadskier]

Can't answer your question, just responding because I was unaware that Dolomite is now back in production as a new boot option in the US market. I thought they had gone out of business. Prior to my current boot I had a pair of Dolomites that I absolutely loved. They had a 5th buckle that really wrapped the ankle and locked the heel in like no other boot I've ever owned.

 

[Nick]

I've always found my boots to have a slight forward stance. My quads have actually felt sore before from the constant slight bend. I'm pretty sure that is how's it is supposed to be. My wife (a beginner) was just fitted with vacuum boots at suburban ski in Connecticut and they actually make you assume the stance prior to vacuum fitting the boots.

Maybe we can get Skidmarks to chime in here with some info!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Cheese]

Pitched a bit forward is a good thing. Regardless of new shaped ski technology the need to flex the ski with body movement still exists. It's at turn start and the very beginning of this movement forward to flex the ski that needs a little help from the forward lean of the boot.

Basically the balance needs to be shifted from neutral to forward to flex the ski. If the boot was at a 90* angle to the ski the lean required to shift weight would most likely need to be initiated from above the waist to get enough leverage to flex the ski. Bending at the waist or "hunching" is not good. Instead, the forward lean of the boot gives the skier a head start so that simply straightening the knee causes a shift in weight forward. Once the lean has been initiated a skier can then bend the knee to put additional pressure on the tip of the ski and therefore flex the ski to a shorter radius turn.

Might not be the best description but I hope it helps.

 

[wa-loaf]

I have a question on stance in new boots that I'm having a tough time finding an answer for online.

In my (very) old boots I could pretty much stand perfectly upright in them, just like gym sneakers or shoes, even when they were in ski mode and not walk mode. These were Salomon Evolution 9's.

In a new pair of Dolomite boots that feel like they fit perfectly, I dont stand upright, but pitched a bit forward with knees slightly bent. It's not a dramatic bend like a sitting down golf stance, but a clear bend that is almost like I'm already skiing just by standing in the boots.

My question is, is that proper of not?


I mean, I can see how that would help bring the hands forward, but I dont want to be on something clearly wrong if it is. It's a dramatic change in "resting stance" or what you might call "lift line stance" from my Salomons just by standing in the boots, but for all I know, maybe the perfectly upright nature of the Salomon's was wrong. It's funny, I've skied most of my life and have never thought about crap like this before! :-(

I'm not aware of any boot not having a little forward lean. but in fact boots lately are a more "upright" since shaped skis don't require as much forward pressure. I like to have my stance checked out when I get new boots with a boot fitter. Too much forward lean is as bad as not enough. If you are pitched too far forward it makes you stick your butt out and actually puts you in the backseat.

 

[Nick]

I'm not aware of any boot not having a little forward lean. but in fact boots lately are a more "upright" since shaped skis don't require as much forward pressure. I like to have my stance checked out when I get new boots with a boot fitter. Too much forward lean is as bad as not enough. If you are pitched too far forward it makes you stick your butt out and actually puts you in the backseat.

Interesting, that's almost counterintuitive.

It's my goal every year to try and prevent myself from falling into the backseat when the moguls start coming quicker.... it happens to me all the time. Argh.

 

[kickstand]

I'm going to get new boots next weekend. I think I might ask the guy at the shop about this. To me, it looks like all the boots I've looked at have that slightly forward lean to them.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I was unaware that Dolomite is now back in production as a new boot option in the US market. I thought they had gone out of business. Prior to my current boot I had a pair of Dolomites that I absolutely loved.

You are correct. These are "new" old boots. The long story is, I want to go to a highly-regarded bootfitter and buy top-of-the-line boots with the full custom thing done (not just the custom orthotic). However, I currently havent the time or the money and my Salomons are shot (as in, past the thick socks with maximum tightened buckles shot). I could have gone the replacement liners route, but my boots were very old, and these boots cost even less than the cost of a pair of replacement liners. So that's the long story of how I wound up with Dolomite. These "new" boots are only intended to be used for one season! I took a shot, so to speak, because I bought them so cheap I know I would either break even or make a small profit dumping them on EBAY if they didnt work.

Pitched a bit forward is a good thing.
e to flex the ski...... Bending at the waist or "hunching" is not good.....Might not be the best description but I hope it helps.

It is a hard thing to describe.

The best way I can put it is that "at rest" (i.e. not in skis and just standing):

in the old boots, it was like I was standing perfectly straight upright, like I was barefoot.
in the new boots, it is like I'm standing upright, but my kneecaps are almost over my toes, probably about over the first foot buckle (i.e. my knees are bent a bit)

with the old boots I could lock my knees (not that I ever would, but I could), with the new boots I would have to lean way far forward to lock my knees (like ski jumping, though not that extreme, lol).

I'm not aware of any boot not having a little forward lean.

I just got in my old Salomon's, and I swear I'm arms to my side upright like in my tennis sneakers. Who knows? Maybe this was a bad thing for all those years and I didn't know. I bought those boots in a big sporting goods shop in Canada (similar to a Sports Authority), which is probably about the worst place you could buy boots from. I was young and naive (but got quite a deal on the exchange rate).

 

[bigbog]

+1_wa-loaf's....

Many were designed with old, straight skis in mind.. Granted some, mostly intermediate boots, possessed less forward lean. If you're balanced in them....hey, that's what matters, but too much forward lean for one's physical makeup will wage balance_warfare on anything tougher than "groomed carpet" beginner terrain.

 

[Cheese]

Interesting, that's almost counterintuitive.

It's my goal every year to try and prevent myself from falling into the backseat when the moguls start coming quicker.... it happens to me all the time. Argh.

Nick, Your mogul challenge might actually help illustrate need for forward lean.

Consider that the only shock absorber you have when skiing is your knees. While sitting in your desk chair, lift your foot up and down like it's responding to changes in the terrain while skiing moguls. Although it works just fine you'll quickly notice you're in a sitting position and therefore basically in the back seat. Now if you work your foot/ankle into a position where you can still bend your knee like a shock absorber but keep your foot/ankle under your hips (out of the back seat) you'll notice that your shin is now at an angle. So, being forced into the back seat while skiing moguls is often a result of not enough forward lean below the knee to flex the boot and remain neutrally balanced while those shock absorbers are compressing and extending.

Moguls are of course the extreme but you can imagine the same need for shock absorption when the goal is instead trying to keep your two ski edges firmly set in the snow while adjusting for the changing gravitational forces during a turn.

Something to think about and play with while you're stuck in an office chair. :grin:

 

[BenedictGomez]

Nick, Your mogul challenge might actually help illustrate need for forward lean.

It's funny you should say that, because with these new boots on and just standing still, I feel like I'm almost in perfect mogul hitting position.

Again, I do not know if this is good or bad from a "standing in resting position on ski boots context", but what I mean is that my hands almost feel like they want to come forward, and my knees have a bend in them - like how I would want to go at moguls.

I've also now read since last posting that Salomom boots are known for being the "most upright" among boot manufacturers. But if what I'm feeling is actually correct, I think it will take some getting used to for hockey-stops and a few other moves. In my Salomon boots, I was 100% responsible for creating bend in my knees, but in these Dolomites, it's like the process of knee bend is already initiated for me.

 

[riverc0il]

On flat ground, you should be able to hang a plumb line from your knees and the line should go down to your toes. You want forward pressure on your tongue and your knees should be somewhat aligned with your toes. Straight upright or barely forward isn't doing you many favors.

 

[speden]

Some boots have an adjustable velcro spoiler you can use to modify the forward lean. I like a more upright stance, so I removed the spoilers from my liners. I still have some bend in the knees when walking around, but not as much as when the spoilers were in there.

 

[BenedictGomez]

On flat ground, you should be able to hang a plumb line from your knees and the line should go down to your toes.

Well, that's about what this is, I can see my toes, so I'd say it's more like knees over 1st or 2nd pair of foot buckles. Just feels weird. I asked my gf how she stands in her boots and she she's perfectly upright in her Salomon boots too, so maybe it is a Salomon thing. This is the first non-Salomon pair of boots I've worn since 1990, I guess it's going to take some getting used to.

Some boots have an adjustable velcro spoiler you can use to modify the forward lean. I like a more upright stance, so I removed the spoilers from my liners.

This particular pair of boots also has a rear tongue, which is something I've never had in a boot. It's very comfortable, but I'm not sure if I will like that or not. I imagine that must partially increase forward lean as well. Might just rip those rear tongues out if I dont like the feel on snow.

 

[wa-loaf]

Interesting, that's almost counterintuitive.

It's my goal every year to try and prevent myself from falling into the backseat when the moguls start coming quicker.... it happens to me all the time. Argh.

I used to be in the give me as much forward lean as I can get book. Then about 5 years ago I went to a bootfitter for the the first time, he got me a lot more upright than I would have thought was ok. Made a huge difference.

 

[riverc0il]

I asked my gf how she stands in her boots and she she's perfectly upright in her Salomon boots too, so maybe it is a Salomon thing.

"Bend Zee Knees...Five Dollars, Please."

It isn't a Salomon thing, I wear a pair. I suspect beginner oriented boots would allow for a more up right stance perhaps. Regardless, bend those knees!

 

[BenedictGomez]

It isn't a Salomon thing, I wear a pair. I suspect beginner oriented boots would allow for a more up right stance perhaps. Regardless, bend those knees!

I'm not saying all Salomon boot models, but as a generalization their boots are apparently among the most or the most upright of the manufacturers (I got that info from a bootfitters website). Her 4 year old Salomons are indeed a beginner or "comfort intermediate" model, but my 12 year old Salomons, while not top-of-the-line, were a decently advanced boot at that time.

Also, I've learned that the recent trend over the last several years in boot manufacturing is to go with less forward lean, in other words they're making boots generally more upright now than they have in the past. As such, as I've been researching this topic the last few days, most of the questions, explanations, posts I've found on this subject are from people with the exact opposite problem as I'm explaining in this thread (they're in fairly upright boots, and feel awkward because they're used to a forward lean).

The reason being stated for this general ski boot industry change is that the new skis are requiring far less pressure, muscle, etc... to initiate aggressive skiing and edge control.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I found this picture on one of the bootfitting sites that I think is very helpful to conversations like this.

In these new Dolomite boots, I am definitely in the A1 position, which is apparently "good" according to this chart. However, in my last two pairs of Salomon boots, I was definitely closest to being in the A2 position on this chart.

The difference?

In A2 I'm initiating virtually all leg movements, I feel my skiing is very "active" this way in terms of my need to control my body. I've never been forced into the A1 position, but it seems you're already "set" largely into a proper ski position this way? As I said before, I imagine it probably helps you on steep mogul terrain as you're being "helped forward" automatically, but I think it will take some getting used to.

I also wonder what it will be like to hockey stop on a dime from MachIII in forward lean boots, as when I think of the power hockey stop, I think of it coming from a position of aggressive extension. At the end of the day, I'm only using these for 1 season, I think I'll try them once, and see how hard of a time the forward lean gives me or not.

 

[Cheese]

The reason being stated for this general ski boot industry change is that the new skis are requiring far less pressure, muscle, etc... to initiate aggressive skiing and edge control.

Oh really? Did they happen to mention that FIS has changed the rules this year and racers will be demanding far more from their boots than they did last year since they're on longer, straighter skis with a much larger radius? So, you can either believe the race community about the advantages of boot stiffness and forward lean or you can believe the boot manufacturers that are catering to the general public who all think they're "aggressive" skiers.

Honestly, from the diagram you posted I could ski in the A row or the C row without too much trouble. If your "decently advanced boot" falls in the B row, I would never return to the shop that suggested such a boot. But that's just me ... :beer:

 

[bigbog]

Skeletal balance and strength were not always the goals as lots of turns were cranked..y/n? I mean, lots of skis back in the 60s & 70s would pass as mogul skis above anything else. Not to mention the shinbang....nothing to counteract somewhat un-straight shins back then...