New Ski House for Rent

[Boxtop Willie]

I wonder what the impact would be to Sugarbush and Mad River Glen if short term rentals were banned in the valley? Not a great bed-base there to start with. Has SB management or Alterra voiced a public opinion about the issue?

 

[djd66]

I would be curious how enforcement works for a short term rental ban? Especially in a place like Warren VT

 

[tumbler]

I wonder what the impact would be to Sugarbush and Mad River Glen if short term rentals were banned in the valley? Not a great bed-base there to start with. Has SB management or Alterra voiced a public opinion about the issue?

Not that I know of. It worked before Air BNB so it would work again and there would be loopholes to exploit like putting your unit in a rental pool, like Sugarbush's, and they manage it and take a cut and pay the appropriate taxes. And it would bring the crowds down

 

[crank]

Once upon a time we were considering buying a house in Whitefish. We even looked at several properties. There were neighborhoods where STR's were not allowed. 6 months minimum period for rental. There were neighborhoods closer to the center of town and also up by the resort had no such restrictions. Perhaps a similar plan could work, or is possibly in place, elsewhere?

PS. We should have bought the prices there have more than doubled since then.

 

[ThatGuy]

I would be curious how enforcement works for a short term rental ban? Especially in a place like Warren VT

Whoever greases the least palms gets shutdown in typical VT fashion…

 

[deadheadskier]

Can you name two or three? Trying to think of someplace like you're suggesting and I cant think of any.

Places which are so desirable that people are clamoring for STR, but without STR they couldn't even exist as towns? Cant think of any such animal. The home prices would drop some for sure, but they'd all sell and be owner occupied.

Preach!

What I novel idea. People just own second homes for their own enjoyment and not to use as a hotel. With the gamers out, prices drop and a larger percentage of people can afford them. Maybe even some locals again.

I know home affordability is at a record . I wonder if there is data to break out for second home affordability?

Typically there's a much bigger swing in the markets for vacation homes. Not sure if that will still be true with the remote workers that exist today, but I'm hopeful . Kicking myself for not buying a property I was looking at in Gilford days before Covid. Heard whispering of upcoming lockdowns and canceled my viewing. Had the loans all lined up and everything. Now everything is up 175% and at 8 percent.

 

[cdskier]

I get the impression some people think that everyone that owns an STR in a tourist/resort area is making tons of money off it. "Gamers" are likely a tiny fraction of STR owners in these places. In reality many are simply middle-class people using it as a way to afford to have their own second home that they can use themselves as well from time to time. Interesting that some of you seem to think banning STR would magically fix the housing shortages. More likely it would just lead to more owner-occupied 2nd homes in resort towns that simply sit vacant for longer periods of time. Housing prices might drop slightly, but not substantially enough to make a difference for the lower income brackets that need affordable housing. Those 2nd homes would just end by being owned by more people with enough money to be able to afford them without renting them at all.

But don't take my word for it...here's an article from someone that actually studies the housing market for a living:

Housing Scapegoat: Short Term Rentals Aren’t The Problem

Steamboat Springs leaders need to stop picking on short term rentals and solve the real problem: lack of permits for more rental apartments. Let more rental housing be built and rents will go down.

www.forbes.com

Another article expressing similar findings:

An Airbnb collapse won’t fix America’s housing shortage

There’s more to the housing affordability crisis than Airbnb.

www.vox.com

 

[cdskier]

I wonder what the impact would be to Sugarbush and Mad River Glen if short term rentals were banned in the valley? Not a great bed-base there to start with. Has SB management or Alterra voiced a public opinion about the issue?

Not that I know of. It worked before Air BNB so it would work again and there would be loopholes to exploit like putting your unit in a rental pool, like Sugarbush's, and they manage it and take a cut and pay the appropriate taxes. And it would bring the crowds down

Funny you mention SB's rental pool...my most recent water bill from Sugarbush included a flyer looking for people to join their rental pool. But again, that's still an example of STR. People seem to forget that STR has existed in various forms for ages.

And I definitely think that the MRV area with the limited bed base is a good example of an area where banning STR would be a bad idea (although as tumbler points out, might make it less crowded for us pass-holders that already own property). And I don't see any large scale hotels or other lodging being approved too quickly in the valley. There were some people pushing back on Sugarbush's plan to build employee housing. If locals are against that, no way they'd support actual lodging to the degree that would be needed to offset a loss of STR.

 

[LonghornSkier]

Allowing multi-family development in town centers across the northeast would do a lot more to promote housing affordability (for the average ski area employee) than banning short-term rentals.

 

[BodeMiller1]

Allowing multi-family development in town centers across the northeast would do a lot more to promote housing affordability (for the average ski area employee) than banning short-term rentals.

Closing in on perfecting the argument. You're onto something, while many are thinking small little houses; (a fad), rezoning for multi-famliy would do more. Where would Boston be without the triple deckers? Where would The Batman be without The Cave?

Longhorn gets it.

 

[jimmywilson69]

AS with anything its not just one thing, but everything is affected. I don't want to stay in a dumpy motel room with 2 beds and a shower the size of a phone booth. I want somewhere I can make a meal and relax in the evening. I shouldn't have to be a second home buyer in a location to enjoy a "destination". There needs to be a balance and that is where regulation can come in.

Also if you decide to make a condo building, at a ski resort, your full time home, you moved into the problem. The problem didn't move in on you...

 

[skiur]

If you don't want a bunch of STRs in your neighborhood then don't live in a resort town. People move to a resort town and then cry about it being a resort area. It was a resort town when you moved there why should it change? You want small town life, move to a small town, not a resort town.

 

[Smellytele]

If you don't want a bunch of STRs in your neighborhood then don't live in a resort town. People move to a resort town and then cry about it being a resort area. It was a resort town when you moved there why should it change? You want small town life, move to a small town, not a resort town.

It’s like moving next to a pig farm then trying to get it shut down.

But the problem really isn’t that. It’s about having affordable housing for service workers.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Which is defintiely a problem. That's where some regulation needs to come in as well as some effort to provide said housing. I know the NIMBYs in the MRV would loath an apartment style development, but the reality is its needed. you can't expect someone to drive from Burlington to wait tables in Warren. likewise its really not safe or appropriate to stack 12 people in a 3 bedroom house.

 

[deadheadskier]

I get the impression some people think that everyone that owns an STR in a tourist/resort area is making tons of money off it. "Gamers" are likely a tiny fraction of STR owners in these places. In reality many are simply middle-class people using it as a way to afford to have their own second home that they can use themselves as well from time to time. Interesting that some of you seem to think banning STR would magically fix the housing shortages. More likely it would just lead to more owner-occupied 2nd homes in resort towns that simply sit vacant for longer periods of time. Housing prices might drop slightly, but not substantially enough to make a difference for the lower income brackets that need affordable housing. Those 2nd homes would just end by being owned by more people with enough money to be able to afford them without renting them at all.

But don't take my word for it...here's an article from someone that actually studies the housing market for a living:

Housing Scapegoat: Short Term Rentals Aren’t The Problem

Steamboat Springs leaders need to stop picking on short term rentals and solve the real problem: lack of permits for more rental apartments. Let more rental housing be built and rents will go down.

www.forbes.com

Another article expressing similar findings:

An Airbnb collapse won’t fix America’s housing shortage

There’s more to the housing affordability crisis than Airbnb.

www.vox.com

I rent 2-3 VRBOs a year and have for several years . Most often they are owned and or managed by a corporation like VACASA. Only two in recent years can I identify as a singular investment property.

I mentioned the places I have rented in North Troy. One I know for sure was an LTR. I have also stayed at a place in downtown Stowe a friend used to rent year round.

No, banning STRs won't magically make the housing affordability problem go away. But every property pulled from the LTR pool and added to the STR pool has an impact driving rents and local RE prices up. It for sure contributes to the problem.

 

[cdskier]

I rent 2-3 VRBOs a year and have for several years . Most often they are owned and or managed by a corporation like VACASA. Only two in recent years can I identify as a singular investment property.

You do realize that Vacasa just manages properties on behalf of the actual owner right? They send me things in the mail all the time trying to get me to put my property in their pool. Essentially the same as if I let a local real estate agency manage the rental on my behalf.

Vacasa basically takes AirBnB one step further with additional services like cleaning, etc which is beneficial for 2nd home-owners that don't live locally.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yes I do. I said managed

 

[4aprice]

2 points.

Some places like Summit County Colorado while cracking down on STR's in general, have carved out sections (usually at or abutting the ski resorts) where they will still allow them.

On the subject of staying at hotels, probably not so much in ski towns, but a lot of hotels have been contracted out for other purposes. I point to Foxboro Ma and the upcoming Army-Navy game where people have been told their reservations have been cancelled in order house migrants (see NYC as well). I know of some places in Vermont where they have been used for purposes besides travelers as well.

 

[ss20]

If you don't want a bunch of STRs in your neighborhood then don't live in a resort town. People move to a resort town and then cry about it being a resort area. It was a resort town when you moved there why should it change? You want small town life, move to a small town, not a resort town.

But 15 years ago what was the number of STR's in a resort town? Half of what it is today? And could locals actually afford to live near the resorts they worked at? Yes.
That's the issue. Too much, too fast for their to be a balance

 

[cdskier]

Yes I do. I said managed

You said "owned and or managed". Vacasa doesn't own properties. If you realize they only manage them, then what's the point of bringing them up? It is still singular individual owners using Vacasa to manage the rental aspect of the properties. It doesn't negate a single thing I said about most STR being simply owned by average people using that as a means to afford to have a vacation home. (Edit...I'm referring primarily to the context of within resort/tourist communities...major metro areas and cities are a different discussion).