NY Private Catskills resorts and Towns and Countys not happy with Belleayre expansion

[Mapnut]

The plan Scotty posted shows a base-to-summit lift running all the way down from where Tomahawk is. They better not do that. The last thing Belleayre needs is more flat runouts.

The vertical of the Highmount lift would be 850 feet.

 

[BenedictGomez]

While I completely agree this is a waste of taxpayer dollars based on financial merit, I have little sympathy for a guy whos loaded enough to own a ski area, who knowingly bought it with govt funded ski areas in his direct competitive set, bitching about said govt ski area getting govt funds.

Your argument is that he should have realized government waste and government corruption is something he'd continuously have to "deal with" and take up the pooper.

Rather than whine about "my tax dollars" how about a realistic solution?

Let it go bankrupt, like all failing businesses (not propped up with money from citizen's paychecks) eventually do.

How are they going to DOUBLE Belleayre's skier visits? Please...someone tell me where are these extra 160,000 skier days going to come from?

Pure fiction. And they know it.

But that math is necessary to attempt to justify wasting the taxpayer's money (and frankly, even with the phony math it's not all that impressive, but that's another subject entirely).

 

[ScottySkis]

Your argument is that he should have realized government waste and government corruption is something he'd continuously have to "deal with" and take up the pooper.





Let it go bankrupt, like all failing businesses (not propped up with money from citizen's paychecks) eventually do.



Pure fiction. And they know it.

But that math is necessary to attempt to justify wasting the taxpayer's money (and frankly, even with the phony math it's not all that impressive, but that's another subject entirely).[/QUOTE.

+1000 this is pretty much 100% the truth, there never going to get those numbers, especially with less people who go skiing or snowboarding now days.

 

[Edd]

I know next to nothing about NY skiing. Is the Belleayre model pretty much the same as Cannon in NH? State owned with state employees?

 

[ScottySkis]

I know next to nothing about NY skiing. Is the Belleayre model pretty much the same as Cannon in NH? State owned with state employees?

I try.
Well their owned by NY state. Lots or years the hill does not make a profit. In the past they have given out free and ridiculous cheap tickets . Their 3 other Catskills hills that are still open that have to compete with them. Lots of places closed over the last 20 years. When it comes to expansion NY state has allowed all three of their hills to expand but makes it impossible for Hunter to open up more terrain that they have. I believe NY employees work for Bell. but I am not 100% sure.

 

[dmc]

Hunter saved up...Built a hotel... Burned the mortgage in a year...
they knew the demographic... They built something to fit the demographic..
And succeeded... the hotel STILL does a great business.. Booked solid...

That's how it's done.. Not with my tax $$...
But with proper planning and solid business principals..

 

[AdironRider]

Your argument is that he should have realized government waste and government corruption is something he'd continuously have to "deal with" and take up the pooper.





Let it go bankrupt, like all failing businesses (not propped up with money from citizen's paychecks) eventually do.



Pure fiction. And they know it.

But that math is necessary to attempt to justify wasting the taxpayer's money (and frankly, even with the phony math it's not all that impressive, but that's another subject entirely).

No my argument is that he bought it knowing he was competing directly with a govt funded ski area, he knew the risks. The second element of my argument is that he isn't bitching about Bell getting the funds, he's bitching for his own sweetheart loan. WHat do you know, its first on his list of suggestions. Which is bullshit. Id buy your tough guy argument if he was just saying no, don't give up the funds, but he's not, he's just trying to get a slice of the pie, which makes him just as bad as Bell.

 

[ScottySkis]

No my argument is that he bought it knowing he was competing directly with a govt funded ski area, he knew the risks. The second element of my argument is that he isn't bitching about Bell getting the funds, he's bitching for his own sweetheart loan. WHat do you know, its first on his list of suggestions. Which is bullshit. Id buy your tough guy argument if he was just saying no, don't give up the funds, but he's not, he's just trying to get a slice of the pie, which makes him just as bad as Bell.

No he is not, he puts everything into his hill. He doesn't want a loan, he doing fine putting small amounts back into the hill. It got to be risky to go against NY as your personal banker why is it fair for them to run at a loss year ,year years, it just been really bad decisions. If they get together and put money they made from profits no one would have problem with that.

 

[AdironRider]

What are you trying to say? That he should team up with Bell? Read his diatribe again, take note of his proposed solutions. No 1 on the list is a subsidized loan from the taxpayer for him as well. Gee, wonder what his ultimate goal is.

 

[ScottySkis]

What are you trying to say? That he should team up with Bell? Read his diatribe again, take note of his proposed solutions. No 1 on the list is a subsidized loan from the taxpayer for him as well. Gee, wonder what his ultimate goal is.

I read it many times. He just saying that if Bell was to get that type of loan he and other hills should be able to get a loan. But he also saids that what ever type of loan you get you should be able to pay back, he knows he would not want a $74 million dollars loan because it would bankrupt him. Their could be just Bell open out of the Catskills and they still never double their visitors because people would go to Vermont and ADKs. I have no problem with Bell expanding just wish it was reasonable amount bank loan and not a NY money given away.

 

[Harvey]

I know Laszlo Vajtay pretty well. He's definitely not rich. He's on the edge at all times, really just covering costs.

It's tough competing with a state run business. In the Adks none of the small private mountains survived it. The state was was ruthless in driving Harvey Mountain and other small Gore competitors out of business.

In the Catskills Plattekill is the only little guy that remains. All the rest are gone.

I'm not taking ANYTHING away from Hunter or Windham, they've done incredible things and taken BIG risks.

Hunter has pursued their goals relentlessly since the 1950s. They've invested a ton and it has paid. They had the backing of a successful construction company that helped them to finance big projects.

Windham just borrowed another $7M for improvements to stay competitive.

These are BIG risks they are taking.

It's no coincidence that Plattekill has a billboard right near Bell that tries to entice skiers to keep driving. A huge percentage of Plattekill customers drive that way. Just imagine paying taxes to a state that gives away free lift tickets for 10 years and allows Bell to operate at a loss, funding those losses with your meager earnings. That must suck, and be hard to forget.

Now it looks like Bell and ORDA are going to play fair on tickets. But all of a sudden this deal comes to fruition. The cost proposed per acre for that Highmount land is well above market and I'm sure Laszlo has to think.. those are my tax dollars paying for that.

Believe me Laszlo would rather try to arrange his own financial through private means.

Maybe a rising tide will lift all boats. Maybe. But if you mortgaged everything in 1994 to buy a mountain, and put every ounce of your soul into it for 20 years, and got ticket dumped and then all this came down... would you be able to sit back and just "have faith" that it would all work out?

No doubt that if the state had invested $74 M into Bell over the last 40 years this would be perceived differently. But it wasn't. I want Bell to succeed. But another big resort is another resort. There is only one Plattekill.

No easy answers.

 

[marcski]

Harvey, you are 110% correct.

In addition, the problem that no one associated with the project seems to be addressing is that $74 million can't buy quaint, New England towns nor another 4-6 feet of natural snow. They are never going to draw people away from Vermont. They are never going to see their projected skier visits.

 

[evantrentful]

I said this on NYskiblog and Ill say it here. Im a Midweek season pass-holder at Belleayre and have been for a number of years.

That being said the plan they have proposed in almost every regard, especially in the lift build out they are proposing, is beyond the point of cringe worthy but frankly embarrassing.

I cannot even imagine what the hell is going through the minds of the DEC (and just to clarify everything I have read through in documentation states this is the DEC's build out plan, not ORDAs). I hope they build it, only so it will serve as an example for the next century of what can go wrong when ideological idoits plan and "implement" something

 

[ScottySkis]

I know Laszlo Vajtay pretty well. He's definitely not rich. He's on the edge at all times, really just covering costs.

It's tough competing with a state run business. In the Adks none of the small private mountains survived it. The state was was ruthless in driving Harvey Mountain and other small Gore competitors out of business.

In the Catskills Plattekill is the only little guy that remains. All the rest are gone.

I'm not taking ANYTHING away from Hunter or Windham, they've done incredible things and taken BIG risks.

Hunter has pursued their goals relentlessly since the 1950s. They've invested a ton and it has paid. They had the backing of a successful construction company that helped them to finance big projects.

Windham just borrowed another $7M for improvements to stay competitive.

These are BIG risks they are taking.

It's no coincidence that Plattekill has a billboard right near Bell that tries to entice skiers to keep driving. A huge percentage of Plattekill customers drive that way. Just imagine paying taxes to a state that gives away free lift tickets for 10 years and allows Bell to operate at a loss, funding those losses with your meager earnings. That must suck, and be hard to forget.

Now it looks like Bell and ORDA are going to play fair on tickets. But all of a sudden this deal comes to fruition. The cost proposed per acre for that Highmount land is well above market and I'm sure Laszlo has to think.. those are my tax dollars paying for that.

Believe me Laszlo would rather try to arrange his own financial through private means.

Maybe a rising tide will lift all boats. Maybe. But if you mortgaged everything in 1994 to buy a mountain, and put every ounce of your soul into it for 20 years, and got ticket dumped and then all this came down... would you be able to sit back and just "have faith" that it would all work out?

No doubt that if the state had invested $74 M into Bell over the last 40 years this would be perceived differently. But it wasn't. I want Bell to succeed. But another big resort is another resort. There is only one Plattekill.

No easy answers.

+1000.

 

[RootDKJ]

Thank you New Yorkers!!!:flag:

While I agree with his reasoning, I don't agree that the State should give out interest free loans to the other ski areas. I also think the business model the State is presenting is severely flawed. There is no way that adding 16 trails is going to increase skier visits 3X, and if by chance is does, it absolutely will be at a cost to the privately run ski areas.

I wish Laszlo luck. I enjoy skiing at Plattekill and I'd really like to see him remain in business.

 

[ScottySkis]

Thank you New Yorkers!!!:flag:

While I agree with his reasoning, I don't agree that the State should give out interest free loans to the other ski areas. I also think the business model the State is presenting is severely flawed. There is no way that adding 16 trails is going to increase skier visits 3X, and if by chance is does, it absolutely will be at a cost to the privately run ski areas.

I wish Laszlo luck. I enjoy skiing at Plattekill and I'd really like to see him remain in business.

+420 I agree with this totally.

 

[Harvey]

I don't agree that the State should give out interest free loans to the other ski areas.

I also think the business model the State is presenting is severely flawed.

I'm venturing a quess here:

Laszlo isn't really serious about the loan, he's trying to make you think:

As a taxpayer - which do you think would have a higher ROI - the $74M grant to Bell or a $7M loan to Plattekill.

Think of Plattekill will 100% snowmaking and more than 100 parking spaces.

Actually I'm lobbying to keep Freefall all natural.

 

[x10003q]

I'm venturing a quess here:

Laszlo isn't really serious about the loan, he's trying to make you think:

As a taxpayer - which do you think would have a higher ROI - the $74M grant to Bell or a $7M loan to Plattekill.

You are kidding aren't you?

Think of Plattekill will 100% snowmaking and more than 100 parking spaces.

Actually I'm lobbying to keep Freefall all natural.

Can we stop with the $74 million? That will never happen. Need Proof? Look at Gore. Here is the most current example: the high speed triple installed in 1984 needs to be replaced. It probably needed to be replaced 10 years ago. There were lots of comments that this would happen this summer. Guess what - its not happening. This is standard operating procedure for ORDA and NYS................................................................................ .............................................................................................................................................................................. There are still zero realistic suggestions for what NYS should do with Belleayre. For all the tax payers complaining about "their" tax dollars going directly to Belleayre how about changing the NYS Constitution and put the place up for sale?

 

[ScottySkis]

You are kidding aren't you? Can we stop with the $74 million? That will never happen. Need Proof? Look at Gore. Here is the most current example: the high speed triple installed in 1984 needs to be replaced. It probably needed to be replaced 10 years ago. There were lots of comments that this would happen this summer. Guess what - its not happening. This is standard operating procedure for ORDA and NYS................................................................................ .............................................................................................................................................................................. There are still zero realistic suggestions for what NYS should do with Belleayre. For all the tax payers complaining about "their" tax dollars going directly to Belleayre how about changing the NYS Constitution and put the place up for sale?[/QUOTEi


I agree put it up for sale, no need for NY to run the hill like they run our state.

 

[Hawkshot99]

You are kidding aren't you? Can we stop with the $74 million? That will never happen. Need Proof? Look at Gore. Here is the most current example: the high speed triple installed in 1984 needs to be replaced. It probably needed to be replaced 10 years ago. There were lots of comments that this would happen this summer. Guess what - its not happening. This is standard operating procedure for ORDA and NYS................................................................................ .............................................................................................................................................................................. There are still zero realistic suggestions for what NYS should do with Belleayre. For all the tax payers complaining about "their" tax dollars going directly to Belleayre how about changing the NYS Constitution and put the place up for sale?[/QUOTEi


I agree put it up for sale, no need for NY to run the hill like they run our state.

So should every state and federal park in the US be put up for sale as well?

Sent from my SGH-S959G using Tapatalk 2