Pico Will Not Operate 7 Days A Week

[millerm277]

They've only had the place for a few months...it won't even be a full calendar year until next year...give them a chance, what they're doing now is already more than ASC did recently.

That's like saying that the next president will be better than Bush, the bar doesn't even require trying to get over.

ASC didn't even put in enough money to keep the place properly maintained, you need to be putting in much more money than that to fix everything that's broken, maintain everything else and improve the area.

 

[threecy]

That's like saying that the next president will be better than Bush, the bar doesn't even require trying to get over.

ASC didn't even put in enough money to keep the place properly maintained, you need to be putting in much more money than that to fix everything that's broken, maintain everything else and improve the area.

And that would be like expecting the next President to do everything within the first 7 months of their term. It's not reasonable.

 

[thetrailboss]

They've only had the place for a few months...it won't even be a full calendar year until next year...give them a chance, what they're doing now is already more than ASC did recently.

Eh? ASC put about the same amount of $$$ into the place last year.

But you're right...ASC did not hike pass rates, slash the season, close Pico midweek, cancel lifetime passes, fire people, and then openly say that they were considering cutting/eliminating passes that they give to local school kids. So in that vein, POWDR has done more :wink: Just more of the wrong kind of thing....just hoping it is a short-term "correction."

 

[Tin Woodsman]

End of story then.

Oh, I see. Because I'm not a frequent skier of the place nor a shareholder in POWDR, I am not qualified or entitled to observe what's going on?

Got it.

On the contrary - I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I should be positioned to speak from a position of relative objectivity.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

And that would be like expecting the next President to do everything within the first 7 months of their term. It's not reasonable.

You continue to advance that nonsensical strawman that the only choice POWDR has is between the minimal $3MM they've committed to and some sort of $30MM catch-up for the years of neglect under ASC. Please, for the sake of advancing this discussion, stop doing this. No one is advocating this position and the only one talking about it is you. It NOT a choice between all or nothing. There is a whole lot of "something" they could do in between.

As I've stated before, and what you've repeatedly ignored, any time you buy a capital intensive business, an important part of the due diligence process is understanding the capital needs of the business and determining a path to address them in the short and long term. It's no secret that K-Mart was for sale for months, so POWDR has had some time to come in and kick the tires. This serves two functions. First, it helps them determine how much they want to pay for the business - the more capital is requires post-acquisition, the less it's worth to them now. Second, it helps them understand how they are going to meet their earnings or cash flow (or whatever other measure the want to use) goals going forward. Just b/c they don't have a full year to work with doesn't mean they get a pass for not hitting the ground running. I can assure you that they had the benefit of inheriting all sorts of potential capital projects that were gathering dust in a drawer somewhere. If the K mgmt team was remotely sentient, they would have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done and and how much it would cost.

Again, I'm not saying that POWDR should just come in and start throwing cash around for the hell of it. What I'm saying is that this summer's capital plan is simply more of the same relative to what ASC was spending and, if the only notable changes will be the increased pass pricing and shorter season, I don't see how it all holds together. I sure wish them luck though - the more people who are drawn to K, the fewer there are who would be curious to explore further north where the real skiing is.

 

[JimG.]

That's like saying that the next president will be better than Bush, the bar doesn't even require trying to get over.

ASC didn't even put in enough money to keep the place properly maintained, you need to be putting in much more money than that to fix everything that's broken, maintain everything else and improve the area.

No no no...please, don't let politics get even remotely involved in this exchange. PLEASE.

All that will do is eventually shut the whole discussion down.

 

[threecy]

Again, I'm not saying that POWDR should just come in and start throwing cash around for the hell of it. What I'm saying is that this summer's capital plan is simply more of the same relative to what ASC was spending and, if the only notable changes will be the increased pass pricing and shorter season, I don't see how it all holds together. I sure wish them luck though - the more people who are drawn to K, the fewer there are who would be curious to explore further north where the real skiing is.

I find this in contrast to what you've been saying. You've had a fairly bitter tone toward SP/Powdr because you don't think they've put enough money into K-Mart/Pico in their first few months of ownership. If you're not an owner or a passholder, it really doesn't affect you much, no?

 

[threecy]

Eh? ASC put about the same amount of $$$ into the place last year.

But you're right...ASC did not hike pass rates, slash the season, close Pico midweek, cancel lifetime passes, fire people, and then openly say that they were considering cutting/eliminating passes that they give to local school kids. So in that vein, POWDR has done more :wink: Just more of the wrong kind of thing....just hoping it is a short-term "correction."

My read on it is that SP/Powdr isn't throwing their regular summer payroll/maintenance budget into their 'expansion' figure, whereas ASC has in the past. General opinion while ASC still was around was that anyone else would be an improvement. Here, they step up, put down a little cash up front, and make the tough decisions that many successful businesses have to make (did they do them well? No.). It irks me that people are willing to basically send SP/Powdr to the gas chamber after a few months of ownership, but are willing to praise other still largely unproven ownership entities in the region.

 

[JimG.]

Ah....wow!

That got going pretty good.

Is Spinmeister still here or is he keeping his head low while he runs for the hills?

Tin Woodsman, you are one passionate skier/AZer. I love it.

It's getting edgy but it's still civil. There are alot of deep seated and intense emotions here and some of it comes from folks who don't even ski at Killington.

I'm very torn about the whole thing. I understand the K regulars and the disappointment they feel. I understand the folks from other ex-ASC areas who are laughing and saying we got the better end of this deal, our new owners are doing this and that. I really do.

But a still bigger part of me goes back to the hard business reality. I commented to someone offline that Killington just seems more closely bonded to the ASC name than those other resorts, almost like all the hatred towards ASC is concentrated there. K was the flagship resort in the east. And add in the NY/NJ demographic and all of the intense consumer expectations and I feel like POWDR is in a no win situation. I guess I feel they have alot more to overcome both in PR and the physical condition of their purchase, so I'm more willing to give them some slack. They are clearly the underdog here.

Maybe $3M isn't enough, but I will not call it token or chump change either. And I'll still wait until the snow flies or longer to say anything about the potential for success.

 

[threecy]

Maybe $3M isn't enough, but I will not call it token or chump change either. And I'll still wait until the snow flies or longer to say anything about the potential for success.

Certainly...I'm definitely sick of seeing them get tarred and feathered over nothing. I can't get over the negativity over a $3M investment in their first few months of ownership - ungracious, ignorant, or maybe both. $3M is a lot of money, especially to be investing into a risky business without much local experience. We've been spoiled over the years with huge, tens of millions of dollars, expansions (which in the end couldn't actually be afforded), so $3M looks like nothing. And we wonder why companies fold/divest/jack up prices/trim seasons/get cheap.

Give 'em a chance. I'm not a fan of the ski area nor do I have any sort of interest in SP/Powdr, but I think the least we can do is give them a year to plant their feet and show us what they want to do before throwing them under the bus. Trashing a new ownership group like this after just a few months is shortsighted.

 

[thetrailboss]

Certainly...I'm definitely sick of seeing them get tarred and feathered over nothing.

Well....you agreed earlier that they had made some bad PR moves.

I can't get over the negativity over a $3M investment in their first few months of ownership - ungracious, ignorant, or maybe both. $3M is a lot of money, especially to be investing into a risky business without much local experience.

True...I think that it is just a rxn to the overall approach to things as of late.

We've been spoiled over the years with huge, tens of millions of dollars, expansions (which in the end couldn't actually be afforded), so $3M looks like nothing. And we wonder why companies fold/divest/jack up prices/trim seasons/get cheap.

Very true.

Give 'em a chance. I'm not a fan of the ski area nor do I have any sort of interest in SP/Powdr, but I think the least we can do is give them a year to plant their feet and show us what they want to do before throwing them under the bus. Trashing a new ownership group like this after just a few months is shortsighted.

Again, much of the negativity stems from the bad PR moves (lifetime passes, job cuts, pass cuts, shortening season, closing Pico midweek, etc). It's also in part because the original K-mart set the bar really high...and that is inherent with the "brand."

 

[JimG.]

Again, much of the negativity stems from the bad PR moves (lifetime passes, job cuts, pass cuts, shortening season, closing Pico midweek, etc). It's also in part because the original K-mart set the bar really high...and that is inherent with the "brand."

TB, I'm agreeing with you , but I want to add one minor point of semantics.

The bad PR stems from them having to make tough and unpopular business decisions. Those decisions have lead to alot of bad feelings.

Feelings can be changed...but they won't get the chance if they can't stay in business.

Maybe it's because I really have no horse in this race, but I see the whole picture and you really have to look at the forest and not just specific trees.

 

[thetrailboss]

TB, I'm agreeing with you , but I want to add one minor point of semantics.

The bad PR stems from them having to make tough and unpopular business decisions. Those decisions have lead to alot of bad feelings.

True. It's a combo.

And honestly, a bad deal all around. S-K-I really delivered a great experience, but in its last two years it was beginning to falter.

ASC simply was never in a position to live up to those high expectations. It made things worse. So bad that these decisions had to be made by POWDR to even survive.

 

[trtaylor]

In the overall scheme of things, I am relatively new and not an experienced New England skier. I've resisted posting in this thread, but I guess my guestion is, did not the new owners of Mount Snow, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, etc. also have tough business decisions to make? Why the difference in the way Peak and Boyne have been received, vs. Powdr?

 

[threecy]

In the overall scheme of things, I am relatively new and not an experienced New England skier. I've resisted posting in this thread, but I guess my guestion is, did not the new owners of Mount Snow, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, etc. also have tough business decisions to make? Why the difference in the way Peak and Boyne have been received, vs. Powdr?

Peak has built a good reputation in their few years of NE ownership. That, and they were able to spin the organizational changes a bit differently (more of an announce of 'so and so is joining' whereas SP/Powdr had more of the 'so and so is leaving' thing happen to them).

Boyne is still pretty new on the scene compared to the others (by a few months)...I think that the uncertainty of the Maine areas before the announcement has helped them if anything - there's a sigh of relief for the diehards that they'll stay together and still have relatively cheap passes.

Another thing that I think has gone unsaid is that there are two parties involved in Killington, whereas Mt. Snow/Attitash are clearly Peak run and Sugarloaf/SUnday River are clearly Boyne run. Sometimes when you have to companies somewhat responsible for the same entity, neither is willing to jump up and stop PR damage (thinking that its the other's actions or lack thereof causing the issue and thus their responsibility to fix).

Regardless, SP/Powdr has an uphill fight.

 

[thetrailboss]

In the overall scheme of things, I am relatively new and not an experienced New England skier. I've resisted posting in this thread, but I guess my guestion is, did not the new owners of Mount Snow, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, etc. also have tough business decisions to make? Why the difference in the way Peak and Boyne have been received, vs. Powdr?

I think that it also has to do with how the companies have approached the general public with regards to the process. POWDR and SP Lands have been very quiet about it...leading to speculation, etc. We have had little connection with them about what is going on. Peak came in and basically has been trying to do as much PR as possible and reaching out. Hence, good vibes.

As for Boyne, well, they had the fortune of sitting back and watching what has happened. Hell, the CEO posted on the Sunday River board and said, "hey we're coming to town...looking forward to serving you," and has really taken a Win Smith approach to direct contact. The guy did deliver some bad news, re: storm damage, but has really had a "can-do" attitude.

I think that K-mart's "secrecy" and the fact that they had so many problems really has plagued them....

 

[JimG.]

In the overall scheme of things, I am relatively new and not an experienced New England skier. I've resisted posting in this thread, but I guess my guestion is, did not the new owners of Mount Snow, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, etc. also have tough business decisions to make? Why the difference in the way Peak and Boyne have been received, vs. Powdr?

I'll throw in what I've said in another thread...the ASC/Killington bond was far stronger than at the other resorts. Killington was the flagship resort, and alot of the negativity regarding ASC seems to be concentrated there. In addition, K seems to have been allowed to slide in terms of upgrades/maintenance to a greater extent than the other resorts. Throw in the NY/NJ demographic which is a tough crowd to deal with in good times and alot of unrealistic consumer expectations regarding prices and I think POWDR has more to overcome.

That said, their PR approach definitely needs a little polishing. They made some tough decisions regarding pass prices and season length and have offered little in the way of what is perceived as positive news to soften the blow.

 

[thetrailboss]

That said, their PR approach definitely needs a little polishing. They made some tough decisions regarding pass prices and season length and have offered little in the way of what is perceived as positive news to soften the blow.

EXACTLY.

 

[threecy]

Throw in the NY/NJ demographic which is a tough crowd to deal with in good times and alot of unrealistic consumer expectations regarding prices

Wow that might explain a lot - Yankee fans! Used to seeing the Boss throw around tens of millions of dollars like it's nothing...and with little consequences if it doesn't pay off.

 

[thetrailboss]

Wow that might explain a lot - Yankee fans! Used to seeing the Boss throw around tens of millions of dollars like it's nothing...and with little consequences if it doesn't pay off.

Yeah, really. :wink:

A good discussion so far, folks.