Saddleback Meeting

[deadheadskier]

A mountain of that size and infrastructure really by default rules out the "bare bones" model. This was why I was skeptical that the Friends of Saddleback really had a chance of success (if they acquired it). You COULD try to operate it bare bones ie 1 lift, limited schedule, minimal snowmaking to keep costs down, but you would then likely lose what draw the place has.

Well, perhaps a better comparison is Pico. However, now that Magic has three chairs, the infrastructure at SB is pretty similar, just a bit more trail acreage.

Looking at a Pico comparison, SB has less infrastructure than Pico in terms of lifts. SB receives the same amount of snow as Pico, but holds what they get far better, so the snowmaking need is less. I just think short of a massive increase in accommodations like Sugarloaf has, running a 4-5 day a week schedule except for holidays, making a minimal amount of snow and having a mid-December to April 1st season length makes sense operationally considering their location. Running 7 days a week and into late April if not May like the Berry's did doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

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[EPB]

Well, perhaps a better comparison is Pico. However, now that Magic has three chairs, the infrastructure at SB is pretty similar, just a bit more trail acreage.

Looking at a Pico comparison, SB has less infrastructure than Pico in terms of lifts. SB receives the same amount of snow as Pico, but holds what they get far better, so the snowmaking need is less. I just think short of a massive increase in accommodations like Sugarloaf has, running a 4-5 day a week schedule except for holidays, making a minimal amount of snow and having a mid-December to April 1st season length makes sense operationally considering their location. Running 7 days a week and into late April if not May like the Berry's did doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

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Agreed. The tough part about comping SB to other areas is its remoteness. I'd (sadly) add the Balsams and Big Squaw to the list of places that are most similar to SB.

 

[EPB]

I'm not saying that the Berrys have made all of the right decisions - but it is definitely possible that that the problem with the last two deals really was the buyers - and that the Berrys have to live with a crappy pool of potential buyers.

I've probably mentioned this before, but I think the most likely explanation is that the Berry's are suffering from a severe case of what behavioral economists call the Endowment Effect. I tried linking a Wikipedia article to this but was having trouble on my phone.

 

[Newpylong]

Well, perhaps a better comparison is Pico. However, now that Magic has three chairs, the infrastructure at SB is pretty similar, just a bit more trail acreage.

Looking at a Pico comparison, SB has less infrastructure than Pico in terms of lifts. SB receives the same amount of snow as Pico, but holds what they get far better, so the snowmaking need is less. I just think short of a massive increase in accommodations like Sugarloaf has, running a 4-5 day a week schedule except for holidays, making a minimal amount of snow and having a mid-December to April 1st season length makes sense operationally considering their location. Running 7 days a week and into late April if not May like the Berry's did doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

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Magic is still not a good comparison because all of Magic can be skied with one lift - everything funnels to one location. They can reduce to 1 lift on slow days, and only make snow on core routes if need be.

Pico is a better comparison physically - but organizationally and regionally (location) are far different.

Saddleback is really a unique situation and unfortunately I think that is why things went the way they have.

 

[deadheadskier]

Just to be clear, I'm merely suggesting SB runs with a similar schedule and snowmaking philosophy as places like Magic /PICO. That's what I mean by bare bones. As compared to trying to run it like Sugarloaf.

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[EPB]

Just to be clear, I'm merely suggesting SB runs with a similar schedule and snowmaking philosophy as places like Magic /PICO. That's what I mean by bare bones. As compared to trying to run it like Sugarloaf.

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I agree with you on the operating schedule and think that your comp set is totally reasonable. There's no such thing as two perfectly comparable companies.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Vail finds an excuse to not run both Attitash and Wildcat on quiet midweek periods.

 

[machski]

I wouldn't even be surprised if Vail finds an excuse to not run both Attitash and Wildcat on quiet midweek periods.

I don't think that fits Vail in anyway. I do not believe they run an area they own only on certain days. They are all 7 days/week operations. I could perhaps see them runni g only the HSQ at Cat on slow days in the future, but I don't see them splitting days between Cat and Attitash.

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[EPB]

I don't think that fits Vail in anyway. I do not believe they run an area they own only on certain days. They are all 7 days/week operations. I could perhaps see them runni g only the HSQ at Cat on slow days in the future, but I don't see them splitting days between Cat and Attitash.

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I've heard they frequently come up with excuses to shut down Kirkwood midweek - a friend of mine based in SF is leery of going there midweek for that reason. I'm sure they advertise being open seven days a week though.

Granted, this is hearsay, but I could see them becoming even quicker to pull the trigger on Wildcat than even Peak was.

 

[Newpylong]

They are not going to do that.

 

[Edd]

They are not going to do that.

Do you mean close Wildcat midweek? Maybe I’m not understanding the previous post.

 

[Newpylong]

Correct.

 

[snoseek]

I've heard they frequently come up with excuses to shut down Kirkwood midweek - a friend of mine based in SF is leery of going there midweek for that reason. I'm sure they advertise being open seven days a week though.

Granted, this is hearsay, but I could see them becoming even quicker to pull the trigger on Wildcat than even Peak was.

While they may not run chair 4 on the backside as often as people like sometimes it has nothing to do with saving money if they decide to shut the mountain...its all weather. That's coming from someone that is extremely critical of vail as a company specifically in regards to Kirkwood.

I don't see them shutting any of their properties midweek.

 

[EPB]

While they may not run chair 4 on the backside as often as people like sometimes it has nothing to do with saving money if they decide to shut the mountain...its all weather. That's coming from someone that is extremely critical of vail as a company specifically in regards to Kirkwood.

I don't see them shutting any of their properties midweek.

I trust you know better than me. My info is third hand.

 

[EPB]

Correct.

We'll see. There are probably a good dozen of places with 1k vert that works be better off not running 7 days a week (non-holiday). I can't imagine places like either of the Black mountains, Burke, Ragged, Bromley, MRG, Smuggs, Mt. Ellen, any Maine resort that doesn't have night skiing, and a few Québécoise places would hurt themselves by taking 1-3 midweek days off.

 

[2Planker]

We'll see. There are probably a good dozen of places with 1k vert that works be better off not running 7 days a week (non-holiday). I can't imagine places like either of the Black mountains, Burke, Ragged, Bromley, MRG, Smuggs, Mt. Ellen, any Maine resort that doesn't have night skiing, and a few Québécoise places would hurt themselves by taking 1-3 midweek days off.

No way. The Cat only closes for weather.
Either 50+ crosswinds, torrential rain or the dreaded 2-3 day ice storm like last year.

Many of the smaller places have contracted weekly groups or schools on weekdays.

 

[EPB]

No way. The Cat only closes for weather.
Either 50+ crosswinds, torrential rain or the dreaded 2-3 day ice storm like last year.

Many of the smaller places have contracted weekly groups or schools on weekdays.

I'm failing to see how this addresses what I said. Cut off is 1k vert. Which places probably should close at least a day midweek? Small hills are generally the last ones that would make sense for that very reason. Peak had a quicker trigger with Wildcat than the old owners by all accounts I've heard. I think this was smart. I'm going a step further by suggesting they'd probably come out ahead by saying they're no longer operating on Wednesdays period. As a suburbanite, this would have zero bearing on my decision to purchase a pass.

 

[Cat in January]

We'll see. There are probably a good dozen of places with 1k vert that works be better off not running 7 days a week (non-holiday). I can't imagine places like either of the Black mountains, Burke, Ragged, Bromley, MRG, Smuggs, Mt. Ellen, any Maine resort that doesn't have night skiing, and a few Québécoise places would hurt themselves by taking 1-3 midweek days off.

Black Mountain of Maine is closed M-Th except school holidays and Mount Abram in Maine is closed M-W.

 

[MEtoVTSkier]

Bigrock is closed Monday-Tuesdays unless holiday/vacation (US or Canada)

 

[deadheadskier]

We'll see. There are probably a good dozen of places with 1k vert that works be better off not running 7 days a week (non-holiday). I can't imagine places like either of the Black mountains, Burke, Ragged, Bromley, MRG, Smuggs, Mt. Ellen, any Maine resort that doesn't have night skiing, and a few Québécoise places would hurt themselves by taking 1-3 midweek days off.

I disagree with MRG, Mt Ellen and Smuggs. All have a pretty good local following Midweek from the Burlington area as well as people in the MRV or Jeffersonville that work weekends supporting the resorts. Not saying they make a ton of money those days, but reducing their schedules would very much upset me if I were a local or second home owner in the area.

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[cdskier]

I disagree with MRG, Mt Ellen and Smuggs. All have a pretty good local following Midweek from the Burlington area as well as people in the MRV or Jeffersonville that work weekends supporting the resorts. Not saying they make a ton of money those days, but reducing their schedules would very much upset me if I were a local or second home owner in the area.

I'd also think Smuggs would be hurt trying to attract the "family vacation for a week" crowd if they were closed mid-week. Personally if I was planning a trip to Smuggs, midweek is exactly when I'd want to be there.

Agree on MRG and Mt Ellen getting a lot of pushback too if they closed mid-week. Mt Ellen has to open at least partly anyway for GMVS (the fact that they were opening a lift early for GMVS midweek is why they ended up making Mt Ellen open early mid-week to the public at 8am too if locals want to grab a few runs before going to work).