Saddleback Meeting

[1dog]

if secular growth - the number of new skiers/riders that exceed the number of people who don't ski anymore - is the problem (isn't the industry numbers flat for the last 10-15 years?) , growing the nunbers starts at feeder hills.

unlike the 50's, 60's, 70's pre NELSAP, we have liability - greatest existential threat, evironmental (human nature suggests we always go too far with the pendulum swing), and competition from other sports that were not available in large quanities back then, feeder hills have got to be ramped up.
Only way that seems feasible are larger hills partnering with the local hills.

I'm not a government grant advocate but maybe a local or regional relief for those places that offer after school programs and access to experiencing the great sport. Fun in the cold. Its social, its exercise, it's a reason to get off the couch , off video, and to a couple generations in the NE it would be novel. Most here know it doesn't have to be expensive. Tickets can be the most expensive part of the sport - and they've come down under pressure.

Just typing out loud - its a short season - but its a sport that has so much potential. hiked the northeast since I was a 9 year old - all those trailheads are far busier than at anytime in the past - sure its cheaper - but its outdoors - should be growth in newbies each year.

Organized team sports are having same competition issues with video, soccer, lacrosse, but individual sports ( ike this one) are growing, so why not?

Just to throw a wrench in the above discussion - there are far fewer M-F 8-5 jobs than there were 20 years ago - flex schedules mean working from the lifts, lodges, and ski houses, with some turns 9-1 or 1-4. Everyone has WIFI.

And once they can develop solar to power generators to make snow. . . . . . . . .

3-6" predicted for Mt Washington Friday. . . . developing. . . . .

 

[bdfreetuna]

Good grief what's wrong with you people?

Yeah let's promote/advocate/discuss all the best low key NE mountains closing midweek, when all the retirees, powder chasers, irregular work-shedule folk and crowd-haters enjoy their sport. Thank God for you retirees keeping the pressure on.

I thought we were talking about trying to OPEN a mountain here!

 

[EPB]

Good grief what's wrong with you people?

Yeah let's promote/advocate/discuss all the best low key NE mountains closing midweek, when all the retirees, powder chasers, irregular work-shedule folk and crowd-haters enjoy their sport. Thank God for you retirees keeping the pressure on.

I thought we were talking about trying to OPEN a mountain here!

You people! You act as though I'm a snowboarder worth discriminating against in the MRV!

The crux of the matter is understanding if any money is lost on certain days of the week (and where).

I cheer on prudent financial decision-making at every turn and think it wouldn't hurt to get more creative being midweek costs down industry-wide. I like my favorite businesses to be in as strong of financial shape as possible. You, on the other hand, cheer "keeping the pressure on" so you have the option to go ski somewhere on a day the business will probably lose money. If that makes me the one with something wrong, so be it.

 

[EPB]

Back to the topic, I hope SB finds an owner. It's a real gem. Limited snowmaking and schedule would be prudent.

 

[bdfreetuna]

You people! You act as though I'm a snowboarder worth discriminating against in the MRV!

The crux of the matter is understanding if any money is lost on certain days of the week (and where).

I cheer on prudent financial decision-making at every turn and think it wouldn't hurt to get more creative being midweek costs down industry-wide. I like my favorite businesses to be in as strong of financial shape as possible. You, on the other hand, cheer "keeping the pressure on" so you have the option to go ski somewhere on a day the business will probably lose money. If that makes me the one with something wrong, so be it.

OK so it's just you cheering on ski area closings then, in some sort of ironic misplaced sense of responsibility for the financial wellbeing of smaller players in the ski industry? Nevermind.

 

[EPB]

OK so it's just you cheering on ski area closings then, in some sort of ironic misplaced sense of responsibility for the financial wellbeing of smaller players in the ski industry? Nevermind.

No - you've utterly missed the point. I don't know how you picked any of that up from anything that I said here. If it makes you feel better to twist yourself into a metal pretzel over my alleged irony and feeling of responsibility (to think I fno responsibility for any ski area is hilarious, but I'm not stupid enough to think I can interact with a business that losses money on serving me empty terrain on Wednesdays), be my guest.

 

[JimG.]

No - you've utterly missed the point. I don't know how you picked any of that up from anything that I said here. If it makes you feel better to twist yourself into a metal pretzel over my alleged irony and feeling of responsibility (to think I fno responsibility for any ski area is hilarious, but I'm not stupid enough to think I can interact with a business that losses money on serving me empty terrain on Wednesdays), be my guest.

Perspective is the issue here.

esb is clearly a mostly weekend skier; midweek closings have no impact (or little impact) on him.

tuna often keeps a weekday ski schedule and would sorely miss weekday access.

 

[EPB]

Perspective is the issue here.

esb is clearly a mostly weekend skier; midweek closings have no impact (or little impact) on him.

tuna often keeps a weekday ski schedule and would sorely miss weekday access.

I get the emotional reaction, I really do. I'm just saying IF we assume 1-4 midweek days are losers (depending upon the area, of course), it should set off alarm bells on our head that 7 day operations isnt a good long term strategy. This should not be controversial and one shouldn't need to ascribe any ulterior motives to my thinking on it.

 

[bdfreetuna]

It's just backwards logic to say the way to keep ski resorts sustainable in the long term is to start closing them down half the days even when snow is good and the seasonal workers are already lodging there.

Suggesting Bolton Valley should close weekdays, for example, seems like a total surrender move. We're talking about the snow globe of the Northeast right there -- Top 5 highest snow amounts on most years. Small staff, a few slow lifts, minimal snowmaking...

EPB -- the fact you begrudgingly mentioned Mad River Glen and your inability to ski it makes me wonder if you can really claim no ulterior motives. Seems to me the places you don't like to ski should just be closed when you don't want to ski them.

 

[machski]

I get the emotional reaction, I really do. I'm just saying IF we assume 1-4 midweek days are losers (depending upon the area, of course), it should set off alarm bells on our head that 7 day operations isnt a good long term strategy. This should not be controversial and one shouldn't need to ascribe any ulterior motives to my thinking on it.

So, by this thinking, Delta/American/United and any other airline should discontinue Saturday flying because it is mostly non business travelers on cheap fares and likely a money loosing day. That sound about right?

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[bdfreetuna]

tuna often keeps a weekday ski schedule and would sorely miss weekday access.

Jim G...

If the scenario ever takes place that all the Indy resorts are closed, everything is "EPIC" and closed mid-week, I'll switch to 100% XC / backcountry / touring.

Skiers like me who go cheap on weekdays and buy a couple drinks & lunch at the bad/restaurant are precisely who keeps ski areas able to stay open for the duration of the natural ski season. Works for everyone. If it doesn't, the business model is flawed.

Pico loses quite a few visits (from me) on this account, when I see a powder day and realize they aren't even an option. No, I don't want to ski a bunch of manky "untracked" chowder 3 days later lol

 

[EPB]

So, by this thinking, Delta/American/United and any other airline should discontinue Saturday flying because it is mostly non business travelers on cheap fares and likely a money loosing day. That sound about right?

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This is really off topic, but SW does fly a reduced schedule on weekends (they're the last airliner I flew and I picked Friday night for that reason). Weekend fares are generally lower, but are we sure they're below breakeven on a $per seat mile basis? Aren't there logistical constraints that airlines face, too? For example, every so often a plane flies with one passenger on it because it must go from city A to city B to pick up a full plane of people.

I'll make this really simple. If you're a business and you consistently lose money on a customer account, would you continue to do business like that forever, or would you attempt to renegotiate the terms or drop the customer? Most would try to change the status quo in the long run.

I'm plenty capable of talking other businesses - I've got a resume and some expensive pieces of paper that say as much, but I don't really want to do that here. I'm sure you understand.

 

[Smellytele]

Weekend fares are not cheaper on sw. usually Tuesday thru Thursday are


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[EPB]

I didn't even say that, but I can see why you thought that - I actually saved some points switching the flight, but that's nether here nor there. This is WAY off topic.

 

[JimG.]

Jim G...

If the scenario ever takes place that all the Indy resorts are closed, everything is "EPIC" and closed mid-week, I'll switch to 100% XC / backcountry / touring.

Skiers like me who go cheap on weekdays and buy a couple drinks & lunch at the bad/restaurant are precisely who keeps ski areas able to stay open for the duration of the natural ski season. Works for everyone. If it doesn't, the business model is flawed.

Pico loses quite a few visits (from me) on this account, when I see a powder day and realize they aren't even an option. No, I don't want to ski a bunch of manky "untracked" chowder 3 days later lol

It bothers me that eastern skiing in general is almost assigned second class status with these arrangements and the main focus is to drive eastern skiers out west. I don't see how any of this benefits eastern skiing in any appreciable way. That's regardless of anything we are discussing here.

 

[Smellytele]

I didn't even say that, but I can see why you thought that - I actually saved some points switching the flight, but that's nether here nor there. This is WAY off topic.

Ummm?

This is really off topic, but SW does fly a reduced schedule on weekends (they're the last airliner I flew and I picked Friday night for that reason). Weekend fares are generally low but are we sure they're below breakeven on a $per seat mile basis? Aren't there logistical constraints that airlines face, too? For example, every so often a plane flies with one passenger on it because it must go from city A to city B to pick up a full plane of people.

I'll make this really simple. If you're a business and you consistentlyer, lose money on a customer account, would you continue to do business like that forever, or would you attempt to renegotiate the terms or drop the customer? Most would try to change the status quo in the long run.

I'm plenty capable of talking other businesses - I've got a resume and some expensive pieces of paper that say as much, but I don't really want to do that here. I'm sure you understand.

 

[EPB]

Ummm?

I meant re: Delta/United. Again, not clear. I see why you thought I meant SW.

The point of caveating the SW point is that their model is different: decentralized routes, all 737 fleet, limited international, no assigned seats (fastest load in biz), no first class, etc. They classically have the lowest costs to fly per seat mile because of this... Hopefully this clears things up so we can move on. This is a Saddleback thread. Nobody is flying there on SW unless they live in a city that flies to Portland (assuming they still do).

 

[deadheadskier]

Eastern Powder Baby

We've had our back and forths about the midweek operations topic along with several other members chiming in their points of view.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far in this discussion and quite frankly, it's the number one variable outside of typical work/school schedules of skier patrons; the weather!

As a former frequent midweek skier, the weather is probably the number one reason a major resort can't just pick "Wednesday" as a day to be closed or severely limit their offerings and how great their experience can be.

Happens all the time in New England. We get a well forecasted 8-16" storm midweek, the resorts are reasonably to sometimes very busy the day of the snow and then BAM! The very next day it's either rainy and warm or it's bitterly cold and the mountain chairlifts are all on windhold.

That's the number one reason why major resorts can't just pick Wednesday to shut down. Gotta have the staff scheduled a week in advance for the good day to pop.

I'll bring up one more thing being a former F&B manager at ski resorts and it extends across all departments. It's pretty easy to schedule staff for the following week and if the weather looks like shit the following day, you call them off. That's the operating cost mitigating strategy employed by resort managers.

Good fucking luck calling in extra help on staff scheduled days off when you need the extra help on a powder or Sunny warm day. Those days you're just praying the staff you actually had scheduled even show up to work and not call out powder sick

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[EPB]

Eastern Powder Baby

We've had our back and forths about the midweek operations topic along with several other members chiming in their points of view.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far in this discussion and quite frankly, it's the number one variable outside of typical work/school schedules of skier patrons; the weather!

As a former frequent midweek skier, the weather is probably the number one reason a major resort can't just pick "Wednesday" as a day to be closed or severely limit their offerings and how great their experience can be.

Happens all the time in New England. We get a well forecasted 8-16" storm midweek, the resorts are reasonably to sometimes very busy the day of the snow and then BAM! The very next day it's either rainy and warm or it's bitterly cold and the mountain chairlifts are all on windhold.

That's the number one reason why major resorts can't just pick Wednesday to shut down. Gotta have the staff scheduled a week in advance for the good day to pop.

I'll bring up one more thing being a former F&B manager at ski resorts and it extends across all departments. It's pretty easy to schedule staff for the following week and if the weather looks like shit the following day, you call them off. That's the operating cost mitigating strategy employed by resort managers.

Good fucking luck calling in extra help on staff scheduled days off when you need the extra help on a powder or Sunny warm day. Those days you're just praying the staff you actually had scheduled even show up to work and not call out powder sick

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I hear you. I didn't mention this because I don't know how places like magic pull it off - I'm pretty sure they have a "no midweek except for powder days" policy.

Each situation is unique, but Sugarbush could probably pull off opening Ellen on short notice - maybe a progressive opening as they shuffle resources around. MRG because of the Coop might also be able to pull it off - isn't their "labor" at least partly Coop members chipping in, or am I all wet on that? Many others would realistically have to take the L in the situation you outlined. However, when the weather doesn't immediately turn to sh!t on Thursday, you'd become THE day trip spot in your region. Definitely some pros and definitely some cons. Again, without knowing how the numbers break down, this is all highly speculative.

 

[Newpylong]

It would be very difficult to open something like Mount Ellen on short notice. That's 6 lifties (3 each for GMX and Summit), 4 patrollers absolute minimum (more like 6), lift mechanic, lift supervisor, lodge staffing, etc. Not even Killington has that many people sitting around waiting for the call or floating staff to reshuffle.

If they decided to shutter Ellen midweek (they never will, not sure why there is even discussion), it is a decision that will likely stick. There is plenty of terrain to be had on a pow day at Lincoln.