Saddleback Meeting

[EPB]

I disagree with MRG, Mt Ellen and Smuggs. All have a pretty good local following Midweek from the Burlington area as well as people in the MRV or Jeffersonville that work weekends supporting the resorts. Not saying they make a ton of money those days, but reducing their schedules would very much upset me if I were a local or second home owner in the area.

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I'd say Smuggs was the biggest stretch of the lot because they are touted as being a great place for families to stay. That means they probably keep their bed base at reasonably high occupancy.

If the MRG cooperative said they needed to cut Wednesdays, I can't imagine masses complaining. They have as much cred as anyone I can think of (of size) in that region given their ownership situation.

Mt. Ellen is the easiest - deem that your ME pass works on midweek closure days at Lincoln.

I'm general, being closed on a midweek powder day could pull demand the following day from other resorts. If you're MRG and you close Wednesdays, a Tuesday night/Wednesday storm means you are THE place to hit that Thursday.

Re: second homeowners. Unless your job situation is different from mine, you're probably not skiing many Wednesdays anyway. If your job is like mine (normal hours), you'd just work around it (take Thursday though Sunday off or buy a Wednesday ticket in advance elsewhere). I've never been a local, so I can't comment as readily. That said, I'd be hard pressed to believe enough local Burlington/MRV skiers would switch allegiances to move the needle.

 

[EPB]

Smuggs would need to partner with another area to offer Wednesday skiing.

 

[Edd]

No way. The Cat only closes for weather.

Hope that continues. Skiing there midweek is blissful.

 

[machski]

We'll see. There are probably a good dozen of places with 1k vert that works be better off not running 7 days a week (non-holiday). I can't imagine places like either of the Black mountains, Burke, Ragged, Bromley, MRG, Smuggs, Mt. Ellen, any Maine resort that doesn't have night skiing, and a few Québécoise places would hurt themselves by taking 1-3 midweek days off.

You are totally contradicting yourself. You say 1K vert would be the cutoff but then throw in Black NH (is greater than 1K vert), and obviously Ragged/Burke/Ellen/MRG/Smuggs are ll greater than 1K vert. There would be a lot of pissed off passholders at all these areas if they cut out 1-3 days a week.

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[deadheadskier]

I'd say Smuggs was the biggest stretch of the lot because they are touted as being a great place for families to stay. That means they probably keep their bed base at reasonably high occupancy.

If the MRG cooperative said they needed to cut Wednesdays, I can't imagine masses complaining. They have as much cred as anyone I can think of (of size) in that region given their ownership situation.

Mt. Ellen is the easiest - deem that your ME pass works on midweek closure days at Lincoln.

I'm general, being closed on a midweek powder day could pull demand the following day from other resorts. If you're MRG and you close Wednesdays, a Tuesday night/Wednesday storm means you are THE place to hit that Thursday.

Re: second homeowners. Unless your job situation is different from mine, you're probably not skiing many Wednesdays anyway. If your job is like mine (normal hours), you'd just work around it (take Thursday though Sunday off or buy a Wednesday ticket in advance elsewhere). I've never been a local, so I can't comment as readily. That said, I'd be hard pressed to believe enough local Burlington/MRV skiers would switch allegiances to move the needle.

I was a local UVM student who has Bush pass one year and a Stowe resident for six years. I also used to get the Smuggs bash badge for cheap midweek tickets. I can tell you tons of local college students try and set up their winter class schedule to be either Tues/TH or M,W,F to open up midweek skiing opportunities. As a resort worker living in Stowe, I only skied midweek. When I skied all those areas midweek back then, they had reasonably sustainable midweek traffic.

I just think it's penny wise and pound foolish to close any of those three some midweek days outside of very early season or mid-March on. With Epic being so cheap, all three run the risk of people switching to Stowe.

Plus Sugarbush and Smuggs aren't just locals hills, they are major resorts that do a ton of business. Their reputations would both take a huge hit. MRG might make a little more sense, but they have some of the lowest operating costs in the East. If they're not spending hardly any money on snowmaking or grooming, I don't think running three lifts and offering minimal F&B is gonna kill them. No way I see the coop going for that.

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[VTKilarney]

Bolton Valley is a candidate for mid-week closure.

Burke should close mid-week (e.g. Tuesday and Wednesday) but the hotel has painted them into a corner.

 

[EPB]

I just think it's penny wise and pound foolish to close any of those three some midweek days outside of very early season or mid-March on. With Epic being so cheap, all three run the risk of people switching to Stowe.

Plus Sugarbush and Smuggs aren't just locals hills, they are major resorts that do a ton of business. Their reputations would both take a huge hit. MRG might make a little more sense, but they have some of the lowest operating costs in the East. If they're not spending hardly any money on snowmaking or grooming, I don't think running three lifts and offering minimal F&B is gonna kill them. No way I see the coop going for that.

The college angle is interesting. Stowe's college pass is very expensive relatively speaking, so I don't see that as a viable substitution unless the pass money is no bother to one and their college friends anyway.

Taking Wednesdays away from college kids could move the needle and make the math work out more in favor of opening 7 days at MRG and Smuggs - fair point (however, emphasis on the conditional tense).

ME is a different ballgame. SB could easily send that traffic to Lincoln on any of the midweek days I've been there. Not opening the lodge and running just enough to keep the racers on the hill would definitely save $$$. If your downside is that you MUST ski Lincoln on Tuesdays or Wednesdays, color me unsympathetic.

 

[MEtoVTSkier]

Bolton Valley is a candidate for mid-week closure.

Burke should close mid-week (e.g. Tuesday and Wednesday) but the hotel has painted them into a corner.

Except Burke can open the whole mountain with only 2 major lifts. Limit the F&B and how bad can it be?

 

[VTKilarney]

Except Burke can open the whole mountain with only 2 major lifts. Limit the F&B and how bad can it be?

They are still losing money on those days.

 

[deadheadskier]

The college angle is interesting. Stowe's college pass is very expensive relatively speaking, so I don't see that as a viable substitution unless the pass money is no bother to one and their college friends anyway.

Taking Wednesdays away from college kids could move the needle and make the math work out more in favor of opening 7 days at MRG and Smuggs - fair point (however, emphasis on the conditional tense).

ME is a different ballgame. SB could easily send that traffic to Lincoln on any of the midweek days I've been there. Not opening the lodge and running just enough to keep the racers on the hill would definitely save $$$. If your downside is that you MUST ski Lincoln on Tuesdays or Wednesdays, color me unsympathetic.

Thing is you have people who prefer North to South. It's a minority for sure, but I'd definitely be one of those people. They'd save some money closing North, but a lot of people would be pissed.

What if Attitash closed Bear Peak midweek? People would also be pissed. And Attitash does far less business than SB.

I just think this conversation about reducing operations should be limited to either places that are small or very remote such as SB.

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[JimG.]

As a retiree, I would not consider a pass to any resort(s) that limited weekday operations in any way.

My example is Plattekill which is my favorite Catskills mountain. Don't ski there much though because they are closed M-Th barring powder daize.

 

[cdskier]

ME is a different ballgame. SB could easily send that traffic to Lincoln on any of the midweek days I've been there. Not opening the lodge and running just enough to keep the racers on the hill would definitely save $$$. If your downside is that you MUST ski Lincoln on Tuesdays or Wednesdays, color me unsympathetic.

You still need to at least partially operate ME for GMVS...so what are you really saving? And to someone else's point, that absolutely hurts your image and marketing firepower. Plus ME is where your terrain park is so chances are they want to keep that open to avoid alienating that group.

Thing is you have people who prefer North to South. It's a minority for sure, but I'd definitely be one of those people. They'd save some money closing North, but a lot of people would be pissed.

What if Attitash closed Bear Peak midweek? People would also be pissed. And Attitash does far less business than SB.

I just think this conversation about reducing operations should be limited to either places that are small or very remote such as SB.

Agreed. If you want to reduce operations at a large resort, you do so by cutting out non-essential lifts and reducing F&B options mid-week. Closing an entire mountain (or section of the mountain) sends the message that you're cheap and/or in financial trouble.

FWIW, Sugarbush received a lot of flack when they used to close the Slidebrook chair midweek. Now they run it 7 days a week as long as conditions permit. I don't see how closing ME midweek would go over well at all.

 

[EPB]

What if Attitash closed Bear Peak midweek? People would also be pissed. And Attitash does far less business than SB.

I just think this conversation about reducing operations should be limited to either places that are small or very remote such as SB.

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I presume you're taking about different SBs. I think Attitash and wildcat could certainly do more to pare back operations. No flying Yankee on quiet midweek days would be a start. I could see no ticket booth or food ops at Bear, too. Maybe a cashier for snacks/hot chocolate. They might need to run the Abenaki the way their agreement with Bearfoot Creek works - not 100% though. At that point, I'd say it's worth it to run the Bear. If they haven't already, they should operate just one beginner area - most likely the one at Attitash.

People get pissed when the industry changes, but I'd rather places run well for the long haul. It was awesome when places made a ton of snow and closed with wall to wall coverage. Im glad they save the money now. I thick places should decide for their own whether operating all the days from Tuesday-Thursday makes sense. It's not a slam dunk for each place I mentioned, but could very well be the best way forward I'm the long run.

 

[EPB]

You still need to at least partially operate ME for GMVS...so what are you really saving? And to someone else's point, that absolutely hurts your image and marketing firepower. Plus ME is where your terrain park is so chances are they want to keep that open to avoid alienating that group.

No lodge, no high speed quads or fixed grip summit and terrain park lift. Obviously no staff needed to run all the lifts and less ski patrol, too. Terrain park is a fair call. Would be a downside to need some jumps on Lincoln side or to go without a day or two midweek.

Not to be a jerk, but I gotta call BS on the marketing firepower thing. Is running a limited ME schedule going to materially impact the visitors who really pay the bills? I have my serious doubts. I'm what ways does it hurt marketing firepower? If anything, less opex at ME saves money to spend on marketing to the population centers.

 

[deadheadskier]

I presume you're taking about different SBs. I think Attitash and wildcat could certainly do more to pare back operations. No flying Yankee on quiet midweek days would be a start. I could see no ticket booth or food ops at Bear, too. Maybe a cashier for snacks/hot chocolate. They might need to run the Abenaki the way their agreement with Bearfoot Creek works - not 100% though. At that point, I'd say it's worth it to run the Bear. If they haven't already, they should operate just one beginner area - most likely the one at Attitash.

People get pissed when the industry changes, but I'd rather places run well for the long haul. It was awesome when places made a ton of snow and closed with wall to wall coverage. Im glad they save the money now. I thick places should decide for their own whether operating all the days from Tuesday-Thursday makes sense. It's not a slam dunk for each place I mentioned, but could very well be the best way forward I'm the long run.

close the Yankee midweek? Are you nuts or trolling???? I mean no disrespect and you're entitled to your opinion, but you clearly don't know the Attitash clientele all that well. The number ONE complaint at that mountain is the slow ass Summit Triple. It might be the most universally loathed chair in all of the East. Now you're going to suggest Attitash present it as the only option along with the equally painfully slow double doubles that serve 600 vertical?

That idea would not go over like a fart church, it would go over like someone taking a steaming dump on the altar.

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[EPB]

close the Yankee midweek? Are you nuts or trolling???? I mean no disrespect and you're entitled to your opinion, but you clearly don't know the Attitash clientele all that well. The number ONE complaint at that mountain is the slow ass Summit Triple. It might be the most universally loathed chair in all of the East. Now you're going to suggest Attitash present it as the only option along with the equally painfully slow double doubles that serve 600 vertical?

That idea would not go over like a fart church, it would go over like someone taking a steaming dump on the altar.

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I grew up skiing there, most of my friends who ski I met there, and I've probably put over 500 days on snow there. You could say I have a basic understanding of the clientele, although it's turned over somewhat in the years since I've left the area. I wouldn't run the double doubles either, BTW-maybe the one with the mid unload.

Where I disagree with most here is that outrage in the locker room at Attitash (where my family had one for 20 years) turns into $ out the door. I've heard a lot more talk than I've seen walk in my life when it comes to this stuff. Offering the summit triple only (and the carpet or learning center or east double) on Wednesdays would probably be more of the same.

 

[deadheadskier]

Well,

I can tell you that BW up the road isn't cutting corners like that. I think you're wrong about locker room talk not having a negative impact. Just look at the decline in the number of skier visits at Attitash. They used to average about 200k, now it's more like 150. Also, cutting back the Yankee means the middle lower trails aren't that accessible except if you ski Upper Ptarmigan, which is way above the skill level of many people. Getting to Moat or Grand Stand from Tightrope or Northwest Passage would be a pain in the ass.

You are curiously passionate about scheduling cutbacks at areas that really aren't hurting financially. I totally get the idea for local hills that struggle or remote places like Burke and Saddleback that traditionally lose money and are at risk of going under. But resorts that do well such as Sugarbush, Smuggs, Attitash, Ragged? Cut backs don't make too much sense to me at those locations.

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[cdskier]

No lodge, no high speed quads or fixed grip summit and terrain park lift. Obviously no staff needed to run all the lifts and less ski patrol, too. Terrain park is a fair call. Would be a downside to need some jumps on Lincoln side or to go without a day or two midweek.

Not to be a jerk, but I gotta call BS on the marketing firepower thing. Is running a limited ME schedule going to materially impact the visitors who really pay the bills? I have my serious doubts. I'm what ways does it hurt marketing firepower? If anything, less opex at ME saves money to spend on marketing to the population centers.

"Sugarbush has 111 trails and 2600' of vertical including the highest chairlift in Vermont*" (*Except Tuesdays and Wednesdays when we close over 1/3 of our terrain, have 200' less vertical, and don't operate the highest chairlift in Vermont). Sounds like a great marketing strategy!

Also forgot that Vermont Adaptive calls Mt Ellen home and is their northern Vermont base of operations. That's another factor limiting your ability to close ME midweek.

 

[EPB]

Well,

I can tell you that BW up the road isn't cutting corners like that. I think you're wrong about locker room talk not having a negative impact. Just look at the decline in the number of skier visits at Attitash. They used to average about 200k, now it's more like 150. Also, cutting back the Yankee means the middle lower trails aren't that accessible except if you ski Upper Ptarmigan, which is way above the skill level of many people. Getting to Moat or Grand Stand from Tightrope or Northwest Passage would be a pain in the ass.

You are curiously passionate about scheduling cutbacks at areas that really aren't hurting financially. I totally get the idea for local hills that struggle or remote places like Burke and Saddleback that traditionally lose money and are at risk of going under. But resorts that do well such as Sugarbush, Smuggs, Attitash, Ragged? Cut backs don't make too much sense to me at those locations.

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I wouldn't say passionate. It's a fun debate, albeit a tough one without hard numbers. I think the bleeding at Attitash would have been quelled with a summit HSQ install ~15 years ago. I would have traded it for a shorter ski week. Attitash probably would have increased it's visits if it installed the quad and never operated again on non holiday Tuesdays and Wednesdays (Cannon and BW used to run promos those days anyway). That place is dead midweek - great when you can get it.

With turkey chute, you'd really only miss cathedral with no Yankee, btw.

 

[EPB]

"Sugarbush has 111 trails and 2600' of vertical including the highest chairlift in Vermont*" (*Except Tuesdays and Wednesdays when we close over 1/3 of our terrain, have 200' less vertical, and don't operate the highest chairlift in Vermont). Sounds like a great marketing strategy!

Also forgot that Vermont Adaptive calls Mt Ellen home and is their northern Vermont base of operations. That's another factor limiting your ability to close ME midweek.

You should have led with the last point - it's a legitimate operational concern. "Come stay on site and walk to the only slopes you're likely to ski anyway!" Would do the trick just fine.