SAM: Peak Resorts Pass Sales Up Thanks to Drifter Pass

[deadheadskier]

They absolutely care more about Mt Snow than really anywhere else in their portfolio. No argument there.

Where you are wrong is saying they are more interested as a whole in Wildcat vs Attitash. Again, the one time investment in snowmaking at Wildcat was only because of system failure. They had to do it. It was so bad people quit on passes there including yours truly. But Attitash has continually fixed pipe, upgraded pumping stations, bought new guns throughout their ownership. They've also added the mountain coaster and Zipline at considerable expense. 7 figures.

Attitash is the bigger focus in the Valley vs Wildcat. But both suffer compared to the investment at Mt Snow. The two areas combined do half the skier visits and revenue as snow.

I think a HSQ summit lift at Attitash adds more money to the till than a HSQ at Sunbrook at Snow. It's a more transformative change. That's my business argument vs yours



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[sull1102]

I agree with a lot that you said here and of course Attitash is the focus on the Valley. MWV is all about families all around and the terrain at Attitash is pretty good for that group. A new summit lift would be a big change, but is a high speed quad still enough in today's day and age to bring people in? Today it seems like everything is bigger and better and more eye catching with the bubbles, heated seats, big tall gondola cabins, etc. Put in a new $12 million gondola and yeah that's going to add probably a good amount of families, a $7 million hs quad might just make the current crowds stay and be happy.

You brought up one big thing, Snow does double the numbers, at least, of what the 2 MWC mtns bring in. With similar acreage to Attitash and double the skiers I'd say that alone makes my case for Sunbrook. If Peaks runs each mountain as it's own operation then Attitash/Wildcat would take quite a while to make the money back on a Summit lift while Mount Snow seems to back to cranking out dollar bills these days.

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[deadheadskier]

Single most important lift on the mountain accessing its best terrain vs a minor trail pod with a few blue cruisers. Additionally that lift could be used in the summer for scenic rides and to expand MTB operations to the summit where as Sunbrook would lay dormant. Not too difficult for me to see which should be the higher priority for replacement for the company. People refuse to go to Attitash because of that lift. I don't see people refusing to go to Snow because of Sunbrook



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[sull1102]

Not saying they refuse to go because of Sunbrook, now you are just being silly. What I'm saying is, Sunbrook is a more important lift because Attitash is simply not important to Peak, sorry, but that's how they view it. Attitash needs that lift, badly, but they've known about that for ten years and done nothing while Cranmore and Bretton Woods have caught and surpassed them in EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY. Cranmore in summer wasn't a thing in the early 00's, Attitash was king. You drove out of North Conway and passed Storyland to get there even. Nowadays the village looks like it's aging quickly(being nice here), the base at Bear Peak still has that not built out temporary vibe going on, and the hotel hates management. Yeah this is going reaaalllllll well so far. You even admitted that they were probably losing money on the hotel, that doesn't happen if the resort is doing well.

This all seems like you are going off of well you ski Mount Snow and not Attitash so that's why you can't understand the Summit Triple needing to go. You're wrong. Return on investment for Sunbrook is much faster, hell you could install it, watch the crowds grow even more and then give Attitash their dream lift. You NEED Sunbrook to spread out crowds, you've ignored this point all along. Attitash doesn't have crowd problems, things are fine as is. Mount Snow has too many people and needs to way to spread them out more in the very short term because people are coming in droves.


PS I've been enjoying this back and forth, it's what the forums are all about!
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[deadheadskier]

Ok, we will just agree to disagree. I think a HS summit lift at Attitash would generate a greater increase in skier visits and revenue than replacing Sunbrook at Snow. You think the opposite.

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[sull1102]

Correct, at least until a day comes that Attitash/Wildcat are run better. For now I'm honestly afraid Peaks would throw a detach quad in there doing absolutely nothing else on the mountain for years. I'd rather see some new ownership group come in and drop in a major staple lift that separates Attitash from the rest of NH.

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[deadheadskier]

Unless you significantly increase terrain acreage, anything more than a HSQ would be total overkill at Attitash. Unless you're Smuggs or Magic, 2018 skiers expect the primary lift to be high speed. It's a basic requirement/expectation. Otherwise they go elsewhere. The reduction in skier visits over the past 15 years prove that out.

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[sull1102]

You can space things out to limit capacity, see Bretton Woods new gondola with little capacity, but a theoretically primary lift line. If you are trying to get some folks from Cranmore and Loon you need to stand out somehow.

 

[icecoast1]

A high speed lift at attitash may bring in more people however if Mount Snow continues to bring in the amount of people they did last year from a combination of the West Lale upgrade, Peak Pass and snowy spring, they have to do something with sunbrook or people might highly consider going elsewhere. The mountain is not set up to handle the amount of crowds they saw on busy days last year. Yeah I know everyplace is busy on weekends, but last year at Mount Snow was pretty bad and upgrading sunbrook would go a long way towards fixing that and is basically a necessity going forward if they are going to continue seeing larger crowds

 

[cdskier]

I'll throw in my 2 cents as an outsider that has no vested interest in either Snow or Attitash. I see far more ROI potential for replacing the main lift at Attitash with a HSQ than by replacing the Sunbrook chair at Snow. A new HSQ at Attitash can absolutely draw in more people. I see a Sunbrook upgrade on the other hand as more of a way to better spread out existing crowds and not something that would drive a significant increase in visitors. I don't particularly buy the whole "Snow is too crowded and if they don't do something people will leave" argument...There are too many examples of other crowded resorts where people said the same thing yet those places continue to be crowded.

 

[Jcb890]

Wait, Attitash's main summit lift is NOT a High-Speed lift?

If that's the case, I would have to agree that should be a higher priority than a HSQ at Sunbrook - and this is coming from someone who considers Mt. Snow their "home" mountain.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like a HSQ over at Sunbrook, but I'm not sure the terrain really dictates that a HSQ is needed. Unless there's some type of expansion, there isn't much acreage over there. Sure, the lift is slow, but what does putting in an HSQ over there really buy Mt. Snow or a visitor?

No matter what Mt. Snow does, people are going to flock to the 6-chair Bubble lift. Just like people flock to the gondola at Killington, etc. Sometimes that creature comfort is nice and many people will wait for them.

 

[deadheadskier]

The only lift Attitash has to it's main summit is a 30 year old fixed grip triple that takes 16 minutes. The lower mountain has a HSQ servicing about 900 vertical. The remaining 850 vertical and best terrain there requires the triple to ski.

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[Jcb890]

The only lift Attitash has to it's main summit is a 30 year old fixed grip triple that takes 16 minutes. The lower mountain has a HSQ servicing about 900 vertical. The remaining 850 vertical and best terrain there requires the triple to ski.

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In that case, I'm on your side. HSQ at Attitash for summit before Sunbrook at Mt. Snow.

 

[slatham]

Knowing little about the situation at Attitash or Wildcat other than what I have read, I would make a couple of observations.

Peak cannot do everything at once. They have to set priorities and work down the list. So Mt Snow, now Hunter, etc. Just because Attitash (or Wildcat) hasn't been the focus yet doesn't mean they are forever neglected. In fact, I would be very surprised if a high speed quad wasn't in the near term plans for Attitash.

As far as Sunbrook, no way they put in a HSQ without adding snowmaking. That pod on existing snowmaking and a HSQ would be a disaster. Yes, they have the water, but they need further permits, and expenditures to add the snowmaking. I would also argue they need more terrain to support a HSQ. I know nothing but would guess this is at least a couple years away.

 

[skixc2]

Point A) I would argue that the primary lift at Attitash is the high speed Flying Yankee, as it serves more trails and options than the summit and has more intermediate options. The summit is more about the upper level skier. The Top-Notch double should actually be faster than the triple if they ever ran it... (I agree, though, both are painfully slow and another option is needed)

Point B) Attitash seriously considered replacing the triple with a high speed when they put Flying Yankee in (not Peaks of course) but decided to truncate the lift where it ends today to avoid complex permitting. The area served by Flying Yankee is privately owned, are area from just above there up the mountain is WMNF. It was a lazy choice then, but that doesn't mean the permitting wouldn't still be a nightmare now.

Point C) Peaks needs credit for continued solid excellence at Crotched. I grew up in Bennington, and having that area come back from the dead was a huge deal for the town and I've been very satisfied with the operation ever since. Nothing flashy, but no wasted money either. (and great off-piste lines)

Point D) Attitash should put in the originally planned monorail to the summit - that would be a sweet replacement for the triple!

 

[Jcb890]

Knowing little about the situation at Attitash or Wildcat other than what I have read, I would make a couple of observations.

Peak cannot do everything at once. They have to set priorities and work down the list. So Mt Snow, now Hunter, etc. Just because Attitash (or Wildcat) hasn't been the focus yet doesn't mean they are forever neglected. In fact, I would be very surprised if a high speed quad wasn't in the near term plans for Attitash.

As far as Sunbrook, no way they put in a HSQ without adding snowmaking. That pod on existing snowmaking and a HSQ would be a disaster. Yes, they have the water, but they need further permits, and expenditures to add the snowmaking. I would also argue they need more terrain to support a HSQ. I know nothing but would guess this is at least a couple years away.

Agreed, but I thought this was based on the Sunrbook HSQ being a foregone conclusion. Are people still connecting dots/making wish-lists or has any of this been announced by Peaks?

 

[icecoast1]

Agreed, but I thought this was based on the Sunrbook HSQ being a foregone conclusion. Are people still connecting dots/making wish-lists or has any of this been announced by Peaks?

Nothing officially announced but they've said in other areas such as their passholder forum that they want to add snowmaking to the non snowmaking trails, put in a high speed lift and add a small "lodge" to get people to go over there and stay over there to help alleviate the insane crowds on the main face on busier days. Sunbrook is way underutilized because of the lack of snowmaking and even more so because of the slow lift

 

[Jcb890]

Nothing officially announced but they've said in other areas such as their passholder forum that they want to add snowmaking to the non snowmaking trails, put in a high speed lift and add a small "lodge" to get people to go over there and stay over there to help alleviate the insane crowds on the main face on busier days. Sunbrook is way underutilized because of the lack of snowmaking and even more so because of the slow lift

Snowmaking over there sounds good to me.

In my opinion, that gran plan is pointless unless they plan on adding more terrain over on the Sunbrook side. There is absolutely no need for a lodge over on that side when there are 3 others close by at each base area and another up at the summit, which is a short walk from the top of Sunbrook. Also, Sunbrook, as currently constituted, cannot handle crowds like the main face does. There's 2 trails that funnel everyone to the lift area and 1 of them absorbs probably 90+% of that traffic. On busy days, it is a nightmare over at the bottom of Cloud Nine.

 

[sull1102]

Sunbrook HS Quad at Mt.Snow comes with snowmaking over there on the Dippers. It also needs to happen soon, take a look at the ACT250 database with the permits. They already extended it once and the due date is coming up pretty soon again. I doubt it'll be very hard to get any needed permits, which to be honest I'll have to check but I think they already got that approved with the new lift.

If you skied Snow this winter when that area was fully open you know there is plenty of space back there. You certainly do not need to add more trails, there's at least four trails to the skiers right of Cloud Nine that see virtually nobody. Plus the woods over there could be cleaned up and trimmed/opened up a bit without any permitting or big expense. I love this part though... A high speed quad does NOT add capacity. Sunbrook is a fixed grip quad with tight spacing and very slow speed because of that spacing which gets very close if not matches the max PPH for a replacement. Honestly I'm not looking to increase capacity I'm looking to increase the attractiveness of the pod. A detach does that. Suddenly I'm parking at Carinthia and two high speed quad rides later I'm at the summit. Right now people avoid Sunbrook like the plague. Also if you think that more on mountain dining isn't badly needed you don't ski at Mount Snow. Those lodges are taking all they can handle at lunch and adding a Schwendi Hutte type place or another Bullwheel would go a long towards helping.

At the end of the day the reason I really started this whole thing was the idea of getting people off the Main Face. On weekends this year every trail was like Grand Junction at Loon, well almost every trail. It's not that I don't think attitash needs the lift or doesn't deserve it or doesn't have potential, it's just that the place isn't doing enough right now to warrant it while Mount Snow is overachieving in a major way.

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[deadheadskier]

What exactly aren't they "doing enough of to warrant" offering what is expected at a major ski area? The shorter season is somewhat overblown. They've actually extended their season into April in recent years to match Cranmore. Early season they make Wildcat available as early as possible, so why dillute any potential profits by opening a second area right down the street? They make a ton of snow once they get going. BTW an earlier opening at Attitash would mean less snowmaking early season for Cat as they share labor for that department. No one wants to see that. Top it all off with major investment in summer activities and it seems to be they are doing plenty enough to warrant a modern lift for their clientele and to try and attract new skiers.

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