Smellytele
Well-known member
Sunbrook - What a boring pod and a waste of a high speed lift.
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SAM: Peak Resorts Pass Sales Up Thanks to Drifter Pass
- Thread starter thetrailboss
- Start date
sull1102
Member
You answered your own question here. You said, "to match Cranmore." That is pathetic for what was once a far and away better mountain back in the ASC days. They don't even have their own snowmaking team now! I think it is great to combine efforts, but there is a line when it turns bad. When your excuse for not being open early or staying open late, sorry but opening in December and closing first weekend in April is sad for a "major" resort in a good year, is that "well we have another option 25 minutes north of here that is open" that does not cut it. Well thanks but I will go buy my condo at a mountain that actually makes snow and competes with the real players in the region because there I wont be told hey go load up the car and then drive 25 minutes. Actually they probably open later than any other "major" mountain in New England and usually open with the B teamers like Burke, Berkshire East, Bolton Valley, and Magic. Hey look at that, the mountains that compare also don't have a high speed quad as the main lift, with one exception. The skier visit numbers are not going up, real estate is not being built, hell the hotel is being pushed away, forward momentum of any kind seems minimal and limited to the summer ops(mtn coaster and zipline mentioned previously don't qualify as major in my opinion seeing as literally every hill has been installing both of those and Attitash was actually YEARS behind the trend and while we're on the subject why not invest more in the fast growing Downhill MTB options that have been offered for a decade). Does Attitash have a capactiy problem on weekends? No. Mount Snow does have a fast growing capacity problem.
Should be noted as well that Sunbrook is approved by the state ready to go in and can reuse the current towers and the line does not need to be widened in any way. AKA cheap-ish install. Meanwhile Attitash needs to get permits approved and then widen the lift line and install all new towers on a longer liftline. Also Attitash really needs more of the Bluebird treatment with a staple signature lift that sells tickets and gives the marketing team material. Snow could take a used high speed quad even and get the same results.
drjeff
Well-known member
Perspective here, as I have heard Peak admins say at the Mount Snow passholders meeting in the past when the question was asked why doesn't Mount Snow have the SUMMER opportunities like are present at Attitash and more locally at Bromley?
Short version, North Conway draws visitors year round, and has been for a LONG time. In the summer, what Attitash offers is different than what many other summer destinations in that region have to offer. It doesn't take that much marketing effort to get people to Attitash in the summer for the alpine slides, mountain coaster, water slides, downhill mountain biking, zip lines, festivals, etc. The tourism base is there already, and it's a captive market, especially in the non snow seasons. Hence why they have made the capital investments in non snow activities at Attitash more so than at any other of their properties. The Peak admins a few years ago basically stated that Attitash is going to be, the focus of their major summer ops, with only relatively minor, lower costs to create and operate on hill Summer operations at their other Eastern resorts.
In the winter, the competition for ski visits in that region is greater. The demand is spread out over multiple players with similar offerings. While the need to put a solid product on the hill is there for sure, the return on major investment for winter options, such as a HSQ to replace the summit triple isn't there. Additionally, that would have their Summer ops needing to run another lift, at an additional cost as well as the wear and tear on the lift for the hours it would spin in the summer for what would amount for essentially a scenic lift ride.
The reality is what likely could work best would be a new HSQ, with a mid station near where the top of Flying Yankee//the top of the Alpine Slides area that would allow 1 lift to do the work of 2. Is that though worth the probably 7.5-10 million investment to do something like that? That is the question
Short version, North Conway draws visitors year round, and has been for a LONG time. In the summer, what Attitash offers is different than what many other summer destinations in that region have to offer. It doesn't take that much marketing effort to get people to Attitash in the summer for the alpine slides, mountain coaster, water slides, downhill mountain biking, zip lines, festivals, etc. The tourism base is there already, and it's a captive market, especially in the non snow seasons. Hence why they have made the capital investments in non snow activities at Attitash more so than at any other of their properties. The Peak admins a few years ago basically stated that Attitash is going to be, the focus of their major summer ops, with only relatively minor, lower costs to create and operate on hill Summer operations at their other Eastern resorts.
In the winter, the competition for ski visits in that region is greater. The demand is spread out over multiple players with similar offerings. While the need to put a solid product on the hill is there for sure, the return on major investment for winter options, such as a HSQ to replace the summit triple isn't there. Additionally, that would have their Summer ops needing to run another lift, at an additional cost as well as the wear and tear on the lift for the hours it would spin in the summer for what would amount for essentially a scenic lift ride.
The reality is what likely could work best would be a new HSQ, with a mid station near where the top of Flying Yankee//the top of the Alpine Slides area that would allow 1 lift to do the work of 2. Is that though worth the probably 7.5-10 million investment to do something like that? That is the question
sull1102
Member
Nope and if you look back I actually note multiple times that I like the place a lot and want to see it succeed, but the current management has failed to give it the attention and/or effort needed to compete in the MWV. I'm someone that grew up skiing at Attitash and the competition on weekend trips from Boston when things were great and now it is 15 years later and the place has noticeably gone downhill just overall.
sull1102
Member
Get ready cause it is a coming. Not a matter of if but when thanks to the ACT 250 approval and ever growing lift lines. Assuming you also think Snow Bowl at Stratton is a waste of a high speed lift?
machski
Well-known member
Ok, now you're off the wall. Bretton Woods has HSQ's all over already. The Gondola is going in with limited cabins because it's primary focus is summer business (ownership has stated as much). The line for it is going OVER the Bethlehem HSQ, which means that lift will be exposed to winds and likely subject to holds (which BW likes to claim they have few issues with).
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Jcb890
Active member
I enjoy the terrain over on Sunbrook, but the only reason those trails over to the right (Dipper, etc.) are good is because of what you stated above. When busy/heavily used, they are nothing special and quite flat for a good portion. I disagree about the trees over there, unless you're suggesting making it beginner-level glades that are widely-spaced. Otherwise, there's not really the pitch you want for glades in most of those sections.
As for food, my wife and I regularly ride at Mt. Snow and mostly on weekends. Even on insanely-crowded Saturdays they seem able to keep up with the F&B demand between the regular lunch places, pizza, cafe-thingy and the newer stuff like Canned. The summit lodge/cafeteria never seems to be full or running out of F&B either. Would something over on Sunbrook be nice? Sure. Is it needed? Absolutely not.
I'm not saying snowmaking, a new HSQ and a small lodge/F&B option would not be great over on Sunbrook. It could and probably will. I'm just saying that Attitash not having a HSQ to their summit AT ALL should be a higher priority for the ownership group than sprucing up a pod of a handful of trails at one of their other resorts.
Agreed. A new HSQ at Attitash absolutely could bring in more people and give you decent ROI through increased skier visits. I don't see an HSQ at Sunbrook resulting in an increase in many skier visits though so where's the ROI? People in favor of the lift mentioned they believe it could help spread out crowds. There's not exactly a lot of ROI in spreading out existing crowds (if people are trying to use the "well you'll lose skier visits to other mountains because people won't want to deal with the crowds so you have to build a new lift just to maintain current levels" justification, then I already stated I'm not buying that one).
Sull keeps arguing that since they have the permit already for the HSQ it is imminent. What's to stop them from simply asking for another permit extension though instead (the original permit was issued in 2010, so they're not exactly rushing)? I'm sure that is far easier than going through the whole ACT 250 submission, review, and approval process again. That permit however is only for the HSQ. If they wanted to add the other things like a small lodge/F&B option, then that needs a new permit so would't be something that could happen too quickly (unless they already have a permit for this, but I didn't see it when looking at the ACT 250 db).
Don't get me wrong, I would certainly expect to see the HSQ at Sunbrook happen eventually as it is definitely in the master plan. I just think it makes more sense to prioritize a new lift at Attitash first. The way I see it, Sunbrook is a "want/nice to have" while Attitash should be categorized as more of a "need".
You do realize Peaks corporate drives the decisions on many things you are crapping on Attitash for right? I think all the NH skiers are saying is we want Peak to fix the one MAJOR thing that is broken at Attitash - summit access.
Season length isn't a local decision. We are talking about maybe two weeks start of season they could open earlier. Their April closing date is more than fine. I'd rather they focus on Wildcat early season to take advantage of elevation and a decent lift.
The reason for shared snowmaking labor is Wildcat doesn't need their own full force. They only cover about 125 acres of terrain. After an early season push, they touch a few things up after thaws, expand a couple of trails after Xmas and are basically done. If you could even hire those extra people, you are talking full time work for maybe four weeks a season. Spreading staff between the two makes financial sense. Just like spreading season length between the two makes sense given proximity, elevation and clientele. Season length at Attitash has not changed since Peak took over anyways. Attitash has never been an early or late season player and especially now paired with Wildcat, it doesn't have to be.
As for summer investment, that Zipline remains the longest on the East Coast. It was a 7 figure investment. That's nothing to sneeze at.
The reason Attitash isn't as busy on weekends as it could be is largely because of that summit lift. They will continue to lose business to BW and Cranmore until it's addressed.
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Jully
Active member
Has this been alluded to by Peak Admins or is this your speculation? That would be wild. Also lines for that lift in the winter would likely be sizeable as the Yankee and Triple can get 10 minute lines on most Saturdays (triple tends to be a longer line IME).
Jully
Active member
I am amazed at the length of the line the triple gets at Attitash. To me that shows the demand is certainly there.
Jully
Active member
I agree with you that I certainly do not want to buy a condo at Attitash with the way it is currently run. That said, a HSQ would show a dedication to investing in the winter product that would go a long way to making it more appealing. Also, Attitash closed 1 week earlier and opened I think 2 weeks later than Stowe did this year (should have only been 1 week if they did their usual opening weekend). Stowe gets about 100" more snow (might have been more this year) and is certainly a larger player than Attitash!
I was real critical when Peaks kept delaying the opening of Crotched and Attitash too this year, but the mountain's season length is far from atrocious for most skiing families. Lets face it, how many condo owners are using their condos at Mt Snow, Killington, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf when they open in November?
For the record I'm willing to bet money the Sunbrook HSQ goes in before Attitash gets a new summit lift. I'm not sure if anything more than regular HSQ would help Attitash too. I don't see a "signature lift" being their problem. The problem is more just "no" lift.
drjeff
Well-known member
Purely my 2 cents speculation wise on this....
I am one of the those people who doesn't ski attitash due to the slow summit lift. The only reason I go there is if it's too windy or cold at Wildcat.
However I also don't think a brand new lift is the solution either. Then, attitash would have two high-speed lifts on one mountain, making it too expensive to run. Really my solution would be to relocate the Flying Yankee to the line of the summit triple and have it go to the summit. Then re-install summit triple to service the old flying yankee area.
Basically, Attitash messed up by not getting permiting to extend the flying yankee lift. That mistake now costs them the price of an entirely new summit high-speed quad, or a lift swap of the summit triple and the Yankee.
At the very Least, could we at least have a loading carpet on the summit triple to speed the ride up?? Please?
Also if the top-notch double doesn't run anymore, take it off the map please!!
Fix these things, and us wildcat skiers will stop calling your mountain "Atti-Trash"
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sull1102
Member
I'm curious as to why Peaks spent so much on that zipline four long years ago now, which is an awesome ride btw, when the same funds could've been allocated to a new summit lift. Might have even been cheaper if it cost 7 figures. Perhaps they know something we don't that really prevents them from changing things. Btw what's the fix for crossing over Flying Yankee? Wind holds should be looked at here.
To the NH guys, again I'm not saying Attitash doesn't need a lift there or some kind of fix for the obvious problem. I skied almost only NH for 14 years before spending the last 3 in mainly in VT.
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To the NH guys, again I'm not saying Attitash doesn't need a lift there or some kind of fix for the obvious problem. I skied almost only NH for 14 years before spending the last 3 in mainly in VT.
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Smellytele
Well-known member
I was at Attitash this winter and the triple actually was on fire. Well there was smoke pouring out of the bottom terminal. Pretty soon the thing will be like the black at magic. load every other chair with only 2 people.
sull1102
Member
It really is not that old, installed in 86, but running 32 winters and 32 summers can wear things down faster. I still don't buy that it is too old, just look at the similarly aged Snow Bowl getting reinstalled. When the Summit Triple comes down I'd imagine it will quickly find a new home.
Similarly aged but the snowbowl quad wasn't a main lift and hardly ever ran so the hours on it are insanely lower than the triple at attitash
Jcb890
Active member
Precisely.
Attitash not having a HSQ going up to the summit (however things are configured) is an obvious loss of business. You have people in this thread saying they don't go there because of it. I find it tough to blame them too. If I go to a mountain and pay money, I expect to be able to get to the summit and sitting on a slow rickety-ass lift to do so sounds very unappealing.
I have never heard of anyone say they won't go to Mt. Snow or back to Mt. Snow because the Sunbrook lift is slow or because the Sunbrook pod was closed due to lack of snowmaking.
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