Scientists say more snow will be the norm.... for a while

[Puck it]

Models are not always accurate. Most do not take into account all of the variables known and unknown. At work, when a model agrees with experiemtation for our ion beams. I am somewhat surprise. I usually use them as a first order approximation to what is going on inside the beam line. The actual measurements and models do show the same trend from this data. We need to listen to all theories in regards to this not just one. The conversation between the two sides will need to civil to affect any change.

Again, I am not a GW'er but we need to do look at this and do something just not a knee jerk reaction.

 

[Mapnut]

Quote: The conversation between the two sides will need to civil to affect any change.
Thank you very much. The problem is really the existence of two "sides".

 

[fbrissette]

Then "those who know" REALLY must not be shocked in the least bit.

I fully understand why anyone untrained (like you quite obviously) would look at this graph and say that models are really bad. Yet, if you understood climate models a little bit more, you would end up saying, when looking at the above graph, that the climate models do indeed perform quite admirably well.

If your crowd would bother to learn some stuff, you would find that there are lots legitimate reason to criticize climate models, but that the above graph is simply not the best target, not by a long shot. But you're clearly not interested in any fruitful scientific endeavor.

That's horse-hockey. Solar cycle, flame, variability, has not be studied to its' termination, any more so than the man-made Global Warming theory has.

And frankly my guess is it holds some promise.

Your guess ? OK, that's how science works on your side of the fence ?

Not been studied to termination ? Since Milankovitch breakthrough work, countless work has been done on solar activity. We have satellites whose sole role is the sun observation. Just a quick google scholar search for 'sunspots' returned 60000 journal papers. Certainly not all relevant, but it gives you a general idea.

I mean.... call me crazy but I think it's more likely (and less arrogant) of a hypothesis to assume that that giant burning ball of flame in the sky that controls such "insignificant" events such as Day and Night, Summer and Winter, and Hot and Cold, perhaps has a bit more to do with our warming (or cooling) planet than humans churning CO2 etc... I'm at least open-minded to the idea anyway, which is more than can be said for some.

If you were the least open-minded, you would bother reading the actual science. I'm open-minded. I have read the literature. All of the work that has been done on the sun indicates that the sun is NOT responsible for the recent temperature increase. Not only that, there is currently no ongoing unexplored theory about how the 'giant burning ball of flame' could be responsible.

What is your explanation ? Do you at least have one serious alternative explanation that is backed with science ? Of course you don't. That's why your side only has only one option which is to throw mud at scientists saying that they're all biased arrogant lying scumbags, making a lot of money out of climate research.

The truth is that most climate scientists would be extremely happy to find an alternative explanation. Any alternative explanation would be better than the current one which is that we are wrecking the planet - climate change being one of many ways in which we are achieving this goal.

For every insignificant and non-powerful, low-level House Republican that nobody has heard of and will likely (thankfully) only serve 1 two-year term and possesses some bat-**** crazy idea, you have a legitimately powerful left-wing extremist Senate/House Democrat who frighteningly actually do possess some national power. I'm lookin' at you Nancy Pelosi.

Being Canadian, I'll be happy to comment on US politics. The truth is that US politics is currently the laughing stock of the planet. The bozos on both sides (yes on both sides) have managed to completely wreck a political system which gave rise to one of the best country in the world. Your system is completely broken. And you cannot blame only one side for that. Nothing significant can be or will be achieved anytime soon the way things currently stand. Heck, I'd take Italy's political mayhem over yours right now. If you look at the recent Belgium example, you'd probably better off with no government for a while.

Politics ain't exactly rosy in Canada right now, but when we look south of the border, it makes us fell a bit better.

To a lot of people, US politics are now a new form of entertainment. Beats a lot of comedy shows. There are powerful idiots all over the world, but nowhere near as many as there are in the U.S. right now.

 

[Cannonball]

We need to listen to all theories in regards to this not just one. The conversation between the two sides will need to civil to affect any change.

Why do we need to listen to all theories? But if that is true then why only two sides??? Can't anyone with with no experience, training, or information make up their own "theory" and have a "side" of their own? Should be a really productive debate.

 

[Puck it]

Why do we need to listen to all theories? But if that is true then why only two sides??? Can't anyone with with no experience, training, or information make up their own "theory" and have a "side" of their own? Should be a really productive debate.

They can but they will not be credible.

 

[Cannonball]

They can but they will not be credible.

exactly. And that's where we are in the 'debate' right now.

 

[Puck it]

exactly. And that's where we are in the 'debate' right now.

There are some credilble counterpoints.

 

[Abubob]

Global Problematic Thermal Rearrangement. or GPTR. (gip-TAR) Thanks to my brother Chris for coining the new "politically palatable" term.

 

[Rowsdower]

There are some credilble counterpoints.

Go on...

 

[VTKilarney]

The truth is that US politics is currently the laughing stock of the planet.

I can't get over the fact that a Canadian (from Quebec no less!) feels entitled to make this claim. When was the last time you opened a Macleans? You should get outside and Windex your glass house before throwing stones!

 

[dlague]

Models are not always accurate. Most do not take into account all of the variables known and unknown. At work, when a model agrees with experiemtation for our ion beams. I am somewhat surprise. I usually use them as a first order approximation to what is going on inside the beam line. The actual measurements and models do show the same trend from this data. We need to listen to all theories in regards to this not just one. The conversation between the two sides will need to civil to affect any change.

Again, I am not a GW'er but we need to do look at this and do something just not a knee jerk reaction.

Agreed!

 

[fbrissette]

I can't get over the fact that a Canadian (from Quebec no less!) feels entitled to make this claim. When was the last time you opened a Macleans? You should get outside and Windex your glass house before throwing stones!

There is indeed a lot to laugh about in Canadian and Quebec politics. Whenever I meet with international colleagues (mostly european) during dinner however, it seems there is always an 'american politics' discussion part.

Having said that, my earlier comments were mostly tongue-in-cheek.

Here's one of the most recent episode in the 'American politics comedy show':

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/gop-sen-thad-cochran-has-absolutely-no-idea-that-eric-cantor-lost/

 

[VTKilarney]

No offense, but I think that your international colleagues talk about US politics over Canadian politics because they are familiar with the former and not the latter. As a regular listener of CJAD, I know that Canadians are far from perfect in the political department - but that's true of most countries.

 

[Cannonball]

Models are not always accurate. Most do not take into account all of the variables known and unknown. At work, when a model agrees with experiemtation for our ion beams. I am somewhat surprise. I usually use them as a first order approximation to what is going on inside the beam line. The actual measurements and models do show the same trend from this data. We need to listen to all theories in regards to this not just one. The conversation between the two sides will need to civil to affect any change.

Again, I am not a GW'er but we need to do look at this and do something just not a knee jerk reaction.

Agreed!

What do you agree about? That we have to listen to all theories?

In that case, I have to debate Puckit on his first point. My theory is that your ion beam models don't fully account for variables in lunar activity and long-term hemline trends. Therefore I can't believe in whatever it is you do. This uninformed theory of mine deserves to be considered equally against all of your training and experience. And I know at least one former dog trainer that agrees with me. So I guess we are at a standstill in this debate about ion beams and whatever. And lastly TIPPER GORE!

 

[Edd]

Guys, it is just science...so easy. For instance, I've decided that this definitely happened because I dislike other theories.

 

[fbrissette]

No offense, but I think that your international colleagues talk about US politics over Canadian politics because they are familiar with the former and not the latter. As a regular listener of CJAD, I know that Canadians are far from perfect in the political department - but that's true of most countries.

OK I'm sorry I made fun of US politics. There is a lot of crap in Canadian politics and we have our fair share of bozos. But the system more or less works. The majority party is able to rule and take decisions. The counterweights built into the US system clearly don't work very well in the current political climate, resulting in the impossibility of any form of bipartisanship.

 

[dlague]

What do you agree about? That we have to listen to all theories?

In that case, I have to debate Puckit on his first point. My theory is that your ion beam models don't fully account for variables in lunar activity and long-term hemline trends. Therefore I can't believe in whatever it is you do. This uninformed theory of mine deserves to be considered equally against all of your training and experience. And I know at least one former dog trainer that agrees with me. So I guess we are at a standstill in this debate about ion beams and whatever. And lastly TIPPER GORE!

Again, I am not a GW'er but we need to do look at this and do something just not a knee jerk reaction.

I find that people are either way right or way left on this topic and that it is politically driven. There are some moderates - I consider myself a moderate on this topic - then again, I am no expert either way. However without getting political too much - there are decisions being made with respect to Global Warming that have become loss losers that are questionable. I think that much of the political fighting is happening for the politicians gain rather then the countries gain! Being for or against Global Warming is political currency.

 

[fbrissette]

I find that people are either way right or way left on this topic and that it is politically driven. There are some moderates - I consider myself a moderate on this topic - then again, I am no expert either way. However without getting political too much - there are decisions being made with respect to Global Warming that have become loss losers that are questionable. I think that much of the political fighting is happening for the politicians gain rather then the countries gain! Being for or against Global Warming is political currency.

Of course it is politically driven, like any decision that involves money. Fact remains that almost all climate scientists from all country around the world (so neither democrats or GOPers) are saying the same thing.

You're a moderate on this topic ? Scientifically speaking, there's not much room to be a moderate on whether or not it is happening and as to the main cause.

There is however a lot of room to be a moderate with respect to the actions that should or shouldn't be taken.

Which kind of moderate are you ?

 

[dlague]

Well I am not driving a Prius! I do drive all over the place to ski and to do summer activities as well. Then again I know many diehard GW'ers that do the same. In many countries where there are an abundance of smaller cars I would bet it is due to gas prices before trying to save the planet. While I do believe there are some things we should do I do not think either argument for or against make a solid case. Not like this planet never warmed up or cooled down before. And predictions from twenty years ago are not as dramatic as expected. IMO


i typed with my i thumbs using AlpineZone

 

[Rowsdower]

See these scientific discussions always turn to politics...