Seeded Moguls vs. Natural Moguls

[joshua segal]

Okay, so we've established that not only are you against seeded bumps, but you also have very little tolerance for other skiers who enjoy them and have a preference for different kinds of skiing than you do.

In your quest to find your personal Zen, you might also make an effort towards respecting and accepting the diverse interests of everyone else who enjoys the sport.

I find your posting to be a personal attack that borders on offensive.

I see the purpose of any of these forums to stimulate discussion. Give opinions and listen to others AND to do so without making personal attacks. If you feel that I made a personal attack on you, I apologize. It was not my intent. If you don't agree with my ideas, you are free to comment.

 

[Savemeasammy]

Wow. We haven't had a new troll in a while....


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[deadheadskier]

I find your posting to be a personal attack that borders on offensive.

I see the purpose of any of these forums to stimulate discussion. Give opinions and listen to others AND to do so without making personal attacks. If you feel that I made a personal attack on you, I apologize. It was not my intent. If you don't agree with my ideas, you are free to comment.

I did comment. Your comments were very much intolerant of other people's skiing preferences. That's not a "personal attack". That's calling it as I see it.

 

[steamboat1]

 

[joshua segal]

I did comment. Your comments were very much intolerant of other people's skiing preferences. That's not a "personal attack". That's calling it as I see it.

If you had stopped at your comments, I had no problem. They are your opinions, just as my comments were my opinions. Once you get beyond the numbers of skiing: Vertical drop, number of lifts, distance of travel. etc.; things get subjective in a big hurry. I don't find you intolerant because you disagree with me. I don't see why you see me as intolerant because I disagree with you.

 

[steamboat1]

If you had stopped at your comments, I had no problem. They are your opinions, just as my comments were my opinions. Once you get beyond the numbers of skiing: Vertical drop, number of lifts, distance of travel. etc.; things get subjective in a big hurry. I don't find you intolerant because you disagree with me. I don't see why you see me as intolerant because I disagree with you.

I'm with you.

 

[KevinF]

The area I ski the most is Stowe, so my experiences tend to be centered there. I always like what Stowe used to say on their interactive trail map about Starr: "We've never groomed it and we never will".

But Stowe has the skiers to make good natural bumps. Their intermediate bump runs (Gulch and T-Line) have some of the most god-awful shaped bumps I've seen. I think they're harder to ski than the famous bump runs (Starr, Goat, National, Bypass, etc.) because at least those have a rhythm.

So I can see at the smaller areas that seeded bumps are needed or are at least preferable as they don't have enough good skiers to make good bump lines.

The other thing about seeded bumps vs. natural bumps. Natural bumps change size and rhythm as the pitch of the hill changes as skiers naturally start making bigger or smaller turns, etc. Seeded bumps are the same size the whole way. Fine for a perfectly consistent pitch, but how common are perfectly consistent pitches?

 

[deadheadskier]

Um, saying you want to hold mogul skiing coaches criminally responsible for injuries to their athletes? No, not intolerant at all.......

Calling people who enjoy big mountains, "big mountain freaks" who are skiing mountains to large for them if they don't ski TtB? No, not intolerant at all......

You weren't simply stating your opinion on what your skiing preferences are, you were putting down the preferences of others. That's intolerance my friend.

 

[bvibert]

The other thing about seeded bumps vs. natural bumps. Natural bumps change size and rhythm as the pitch of the hill changes as skiers naturally start making bigger or smaller turns, etc. Seeded bumps are the same size the whole way. Fine for a perfectly consistent pitch, but how common are perfectly consistent pitches?

Not all seeded bumps are a consistent shape/size for the whole run.

I like skiing natural terrain, if it's available then that's what I'll be skiing. But, most of my skiing is at a small mountain in CT, natural terrain wouldn't be an option for more than 1 or 2 days every 2-3+ years. Even when we get a good amount of snow it usually melts before the next snow event. It sucks, and I wish I was in a position in life where I could live closer to snow, or even make more frequent trips to bigger mountains. so, I have to make due with what I have. I'm fortunate enough that my little mountain in CT seeds moguls, because otherwise I probably would be long past bored and wouldn't hardly ski at all.

Don't let the term seeded moguls fool you, though. In this case, the resulting moguls are NOT the uniform moguls you'd expect to see in an Olympic course. The way they start the seeds is not like I've seen documented anywhere else on the web. There's no measuring, no marking, etc.. The groomer operator just gets in the groomer and starts making small piles with the blade, starting from the top, making one row across the hill, then moving down and making another row, alternating roughly between where the bumps above were. The process is continued until he reaches the bottom. What you end up with is small piles, with flat space in between them. Most people who see them in the seed stage can't believe that they'll ever resemble moguls, but they do. Early season they'll often get top coated with snowmaking (or hopefully natural snow), which adds it's own amount of irregularity as some bumps will get more than others. Late season all that's needed is some sun to soften the snow a bit, and (it both cases) some skiers to ski them in. The seeds are just suggestions on where to turn, sometimes they move as people ski, sometimes two seeds become one bump, sometimes a zipper line forms, while other times the line meanders, etc.. We also have several bump loving snowboarders who help bust things up, and of course a whole crap ton of novices who like to try them as well.

The result is very irregular bumps that are quite fun, and challenging to ski, and they help me get ready to ski natural terrain when I get the opportunity!

 

[SkiFanE]

The other thing about seeded bumps vs. natural bumps. Natural bumps change size and rhythm as the pitch of the hill changes as skiers naturally start making bigger or smaller turns, etc. Seeded bumps are the same size the whole way. Fine for a perfectly consistent pitch, but how common are perfectly consistent pitches?

That's what I love about natural, never know what you'll get. Why my SL skis are perfect in bumps - I can turn on a dime and avoid anything and also take tighter turns than others and stay on top of bump rather than in the icy trough. One run can have quite a variety of bumps. The only run that I don't usually like too much at SR is Agony - every yahoo goes down it, so it has the worst shaped/spaced bumps most days - tis a shame, but lots of other choices most days.

 

[Funky_Catskills]

Seeded bumps can make a crappy skier able to actually ski bumps...

So... yeah... they are easier..

 

[Domeskier]

Natural bumps formed by competent bump skiers will resemble properly seeded bumps. The seeds just let the clueless know where they should be turning. That being said, there are only a few places with enough competent bump skiers to allow decent natural bumps to form.

 

[Old Duderino]

Don't let the term seeded moguls fool you, though. In this case, the resulting moguls are NOT the uniform moguls you'd expect to see in an Olympic course. The way they start the seeds is not like I've seen documented anywhere else on the web. There's no measuring, no marking, etc.. The groomer operator just gets in the groomer and starts making small piles with the blade, starting from the top, making one row across the hill, then moving down and making another row, alternating roughly between where the bumps above were. The process is continued until he reaches the bottom. What you end up with is small piles, with flat space in between them. Most people who see them in the seed stage can't believe that they'll ever resemble moguls, but they do. Early season they'll often get top coated with snowmaking (or hopefully natural snow), which adds it's own amount of irregularity as some bumps will get more than others. Late season all that's needed is some sun to soften the snow a bit, and (it both cases) some skiers to ski them in. The seeds are just suggestions on where to turn, sometimes they move as people ski, sometimes two seeds become one bump, sometimes a zipper line forms, while other times the line meanders, etc.. We also have several bump loving snowboarders who help bust things up, and of course a whole crap ton of novices who like to try them as well.

The result is very irregular bumps that are quite fun, and challenging to ski, and they help me get ready to ski natural terrain when I get the opportunity!

Thank you for explaining the bump seeding process as I had no idea what the heck everyone is talking about. I'm sure I've skied plenty of seeded and non-seeded bump runs and never giving a second thought whether they were natural or man made. I would guess most of my local mid-atlantic hills seed their bump runs.

While I love all bump runs on skis Outer Limits is one of the few bump runs I can think of my kids and I enjoy on a snowboard. Is OL natural or seeded?

 

[joshua segal]

deadheadskier took exception to my comment earlier in this thread with regard to competition mogul skiing when I said: "IMO, that's not skiing and the coaches should be held criminally responsible for the knee replacement surgery that most of the competitors will need by age 40."

To expand that thought, if the coaches want to ski that way, that's fine. They are adults; they know the risks. However, I believe that young aspiring athletes will try to do whatever their coaches tell them to do, with little concern for the long lasting damage - and lower level coaches follow whatever they see others in higher levels of the sport do. Don't believe me? Check out the NFL.

 

[deadheadskier]

So, as I asked earlier; with the unfavorable opinion you have of competition bump skiing, do you think the USSA should drop the sport?

What about traditional ski racing?

 

[bvibert]

Thank you for explaining the bump seeding process as I had no idea what the heck everyone is talking about. I'm sure I've skied plenty of seeded and non-seeded bump runs and never giving a second thought whether they were natural or man made. I would guess most of my local mid-atlantic hills seed their bump runs.

Like I said, the process I outlined above is not typical, that I know of. There are much more efficient methods to seed using a cat, that would yield much more uniform bumps. You can also seed without using a cat by placing markers (racing gate poles or brushes) in the snow and having competent bump skiers ski around them.

This video isn't the best, but shows the groomer seeding method that I've most commonly found online:

 

[SkiFanE]

So, as I asked earlier; with the unfavorable opinion you have of competition bump skiing, do you think the USSA should drop the sport?

What about traditional ski racing?

I didn't take him to be against the sport, but against the training and competing on seeded bumps which have no variability and cause repetitive stress injuries. I don't know much about the sport, but I can see what he means.

 

[joshua segal]

So, as I asked earlier; with the unfavorable opinion you have of competition bump skiing, do you think the USSA should drop the sport?

What about traditional ski racing?

With regard to competition bump skiing, I do think it should be dropped, because the more people who copy that style of skiing, the more dangerous the sport will become to its participants.

No need to repeat, but we had a thread on SnowJournal titled, "Sports vs. Extreme Sports vs. Exhibitions" http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php?cid=topic20183 that I think summarizes my thoughts on the matter pretty well. My sense is that competition bump skiing is somewhere between extreme sports and exhibitions.

I preface this with "IMO". The only problem with traditional racing is that equipment and techniques have resulted the ability to go at speeds that in too many cases have resulted in career ending falls. To the extent that the course setters place the gates in ways that are reasonably safe for the participants, any of the 4 disciplines of Alpine skiing are fine.

 

[Savemeasammy]

deadheadskier took exception to my comment earlier in this thread with regard to competition mogul skiing when I said: "IMO, that's not skiing and the coaches should be held criminally responsible for the knee replacement surgery that most of the competitors will need by age 40."

To expand that thought, if the coaches want to ski that way, that's fine. They are adults; they know the risks. However, I believe that young aspiring athletes will try to do whatever their coaches tell them to do, with little concern for the long lasting damage - and lower level coaches follow whatever they see others in higher levels of the sport do. Don't believe me? Check out the NFL.

WTF?

I like both seeded and natural bumps. Seeded bumps are more rhythmic, and you can ski them at higher speed. Natural bumps vary in size and spacing, and require a bit of ad-libbing. IMO, spacing is more important than whether a run is seeded or natural. Skiing a bump run where you can link 2 or 3 turns in between moguls is a pisser.




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[deadheadskier]

Hmmm.......interesting.

How are Lindsey Vonn's knees these days? Or was that the course setter to blame?

What was that I read about Bode in the paper just last week? Something about back surgery?

Should their coaches be held criminally responsible for their injuries?

How many people have died during competition throughout competitive bump skiing's history? Yes, zero

And ski racing? several