Ski 3 - WF, Gore, Bell

[legalskier]

Hunter and Windham were definitely hurt by Belleayre's practices, and definitely did complain about it (as they should), but they both have the scale and a better product to remain in business.

Plattekill, however, is small enough and geographically located in such a way that it could most definitely be put out of business by unfair competitive practices.

We've had this discussion so many times- the pure free-market model vs the state run facility model. I've never seen so much hostility to any one ski area based on an argument that assumes the free market always works best. The others are like ppl who buy a house on a Sunday next to a school, then complain about the school traffic on Monday. We've been through this so many times. Please.
Frankly, I don't ski there because it's a few bucks cheaper than the others. I have a history there, I like the vibe & the ppl, the trees, the less crowded conditions, even visit during summer. Even at that, I ski at all four, just more at Belle. Each appeals to a very different clientele- you can tell when you walk throug the front doors of the lodges at each.
That being said, "that was then, this is now." ORDA calls the shots now.

 

[dmc]

I've never seen so much hostility to any one ski area based on an argument that assumes the free market always works best. The others are like ppl who buy a house on a Sunday next to a school, then complain about the school traffic on Monday. We've been through this so many times. Please.

The only hostility is all yours... Such a victim...

Nobody wanted Belleayre to close.
Nobody wanted it to fail..
Nobody...

All the competing Catskill areas wanted was for them to stop the predatory business practices...
Mostly around ticket dumping using our tax $$... that's not quite "free market"...

 

[BenedictGomez]

All the competing Catskill areas wanted was for them to stop the predatory business practices...
Mostly around ticket dumping using our tax $$... that's not quite "free market"...

I would love to see Belleayre's financials. I'd almost guarantee the rumors that they lose money each year are true.

 

[dmc]

I would love to see Belleayre's financials. I'd almost guarantee the rumors that they lose money each year are true.

Water under the bridge now... I guess...

 

[oakapple]

All the competing Catskill areas wanted was for them to stop the predatory business practices...
Mostly around ticket dumping using our tax $$... that's not quite "free market"...

The decision that the state would be in the ski business is written into the Constitution. As I said upthread, I never would have voted for that, but it's not (realistically) changeable now.

Who gets to decide which business practices are allowed? Belleayre operates at a significant disadvantage: antiquated and under-sized lodges, mediocre snow-making coverage, an odd trail and lift layout. It costs a certain fixed amount to open, whether you have 1 skier or 10,000. Giving away lift tickets was, therefore, probably the right strategy to attract customers — given the premise that the state is in the ski business at all.

 

[dmc]

Giving away lift tickets was, therefore, probably the right strategy to attract customers — given the premise that the state is in the ski business at all.

The way they did it was the wrong strategy for other businesses that are NOT subsidized with NYS tax money...

The other mountains all had a right to complain.. And they did...
Belleayre also had a right to run their business well enough to invest in infrastructure.. And they did not...

 

[marcski]

I don't understand how anyone could possibly even attempt to rationalize or claim that it wasn't totally bogus of New York State owned, Belle to flood the market with cheap and/or free tickets like they did.

 

[oakapple]

I don't understand how anyone could possibly even attempt to rationalize or claim that it wasn't totally bogus of New York State owned, Belle to flood the market with cheap and/or free tickets like they did.

I don't find anything bogus about it at all. What you're suggesting is that they should deliberately run the business badly.

Belleayre also had a right to run their business well enough to invest in infrastructure.. And they did not...

In which case the other Catskill ski areas would complain that state resources are being used to make the state-run ski area more attractive, and steal business from private operators.

 

[dmc]

In which case the other Catskill ski areas would complain that state resources are being used to make the state-run ski area more attractive, and steal business from private operators.

No - if they made normal business decisions and operated in the red and actually used money that they made operation a ski area rather than using tax money then who cares?

It's the bad competition practices that made the competing areas mad.

 

[dmc]

I don't find anything bogus about it at all. What you're suggesting is that they should deliberately run the business badly.

No - they should have run their business fairly.. And not used our tax $...

 

[BenedictGomez]

Belleayre operates at a significant disadvantage: antiquated and under-sized lodges, mediocre snow-making coverage, an odd trail and lift layout. It costs a certain fixed amount to open, whether you have 1 skier or 10,000. Giving away lift tickets was, therefore, probably the right strategy to attract customers — given the premise that the state is in the ski business at all.

You. have. got. to. be. *******. kidding. me?

The fact that the above post is actually serious simply boggles my mind.

 

[oakapple]

@BenedictGomez: Have you ever...like, been there? What part of "antiquated and under-sized lodges" or "odd trail and lift layout" do you disagree with?

 

[oakapple]

No - if they made normal business decisions and operated in the red and actually used money that they made operation a ski area rather than using tax money then who cares?

If a state-run ski area operated in the red, where do you think the money would come from to make up the shortfall? The state, of course.

 

[marcski]

@BenedictGomez: Have you ever...like, been there? What part of "antiquated and under-sized lodges" or "odd trail and lift layout" do you disagree with?

I'm pretty positive that wasn't the part of your quote that he was referring to....!

 

[dmc]

If a state-run ski area operated in the red, where do you think the money would come from to make up the shortfall? The state, of course.

I don't want my tax money to go to mismanagement of a ski area..
Ever...

We need teachers... And fire fighters... And new bridges... Not skiing...

 

[BenedictGomez]

I'm pretty positive that wasn't the part of your quote that he was referring to....!

Yup.

I don't want my tax money to go to mismanagement of a ski area..
Ever....

It's worse than that.

If Whiteface and Gore are profitable, and Belleayre is not, all Belleayre is doing is negatively impacting Windham, Hunter, and Plattekill, as well as decreasing the efficiency and success of the other two taxpayer supported NY mountains that are (presumably) doing well.

I say presumably, because I know nothing of Gore's financials either, and it's not 100% obvious to me that they turn a profit either (I just suspect they do). Whiteface is the only one I think we can all feel reasonably confident in its' revenue generating ability.

 

[ScottySkis]

Train should go more often to North Creek, then I might conserding the pass.

 

[x10003q]

Yup.



It's worse than that.

If Whiteface and Gore are profitable, and Belleayre is not, all Belleayre is doing is negatively impacting Windham, Hunter, and Plattekill, as well as decreasing the efficiency and success of the other two taxpayer supported NY mountains that are (presumably) doing well.

I say presumably, because I know nothing of Gore's financials either, and it's not 100% obvious to me that they turn a profit either (I just suspect they do). Whiteface is the only one I think we can all feel reasonably confident in its' revenue generating ability.

It is way more complicated than just the 3 NYS ski areas. You need to read about what ORDA is all about. ORDA is very Lake Placid centric. Maybe that will change.

Gore has been cash flow positive for about the last 10 years and WF for most of the past 10 years. It seems that all the other venues in Lake Placid are cash flow negative, but that is hard to decipher.

The BOGO ticket discussion is very interesting. On one hand there are the complaints about our "tax dollars" supporting
such an unfair business practice and it should not be allowed. On the other hand, Belleayre should not be in the red. Maybe Belleayre thought this promotion would work to make the Belleayre numbers be cash flow positive. What if Hunter decided to do the same thing? It is not against the law. Are we allowed to tell Hunter it is not fair to hand out so many free tickets?

Is there a number of free tickets that would be approved for Belleayre or Hunter?

We want Belleayre to be run like a business, but one that does not try to compete with the other businesses in the area.

It is hard to have it both ways.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Gore has been cash flow positive for about the last 10 years and WF for most of the past 10 years. It seems that all the other venues in Lake Placid are cash flow negative, but that is hard to decipher.

The fact that it's easier to come across nuclear launch codes than their financials worries me.

I was able to find from the annual report that Gore and Whiteface did about $7M and $9M in revenue last year. Know what that means? Absolutely nothing. Because they dont include expense information (which worries me) = lol. Top-line revenue is completely useless if you dont know the expenses associated with it.

The BOGO ticket discussion is very interesting. On one hand there are the complaints about our "tax dollars" supporting
such an unfair business practice and it should not be allowed. On the other hand, Belleayre should not be in the red. Maybe Belleayre thought this promotion would work to make the Belleayre numbers be cash flow positive.

Belleayre was supposedly already in the red, there's simply no excuse here.

"Free", isn't a business model.

We want Belleayre to be run like a business, but one that does not try to compete with the other businesses in the area. It is hard to have it both ways.

Says who? To be successful, of course Belleayre has to compete against Windham, Hunter, and Plattekill.

There's a difference between "competing" and "unfair taxpayer funded predatory practices", which is what Belleayre was doing.

If Hunter gave out zillions of free tickets, Hunter would go out of business. But Belleayre CAN harm the others by giving out zillions of free tickets, because it can artificially survive due to the neverending influx of $$$$ coming from New York State Citizen's Paychecks.

 

[BenedictGomez]

In case anyone is interested in this sort of thing, ORDA lost $17M last year and $14M the year before from operations. As I mentioned, I couldnt get a Gore/Whiteface breakout, though those two entities account for more than 1/2 of ORDA's revenue (about 57%).

And as I've mentioned, I've never been able to find any sort of transparency on Belleayre's financials. If someone has that info, please do post.