Ski Resorts with too much uphill capacity

[ScottySkis]

Hunter

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? They only have 2 summit chairs on the main face and one that currently runs on the West side? I agree that Vail has to many high speed chairs, maybe it is why they charge so much for daily lift tickets.

 

[andyzee]

Tuckerman Ravine, I think they need to put a toll booth on tux trail to limit the people.

 

[mister moose]

But yet Mount Snow doesn't ski more "crowded" off the summit when all those lifts are running.

Amazing. Add more people, but it doesn't get more crowded. What's next, raise the ticket price, but it isn't more "money"?

1st off, very few people riding Sunbrook actually make the UPHILL hike (easy skate) of about 100 yards or so from where it unloads over to the Main Face (some will make the short trek over to the Northface), so most of the folks riding that Quad head back down the pod it services. Because they like the relatively low crowding of Sunbrook

The Northface - if the Challenger triple (the one that basically has it's top terminal on the back deck of the summit lodge) is running, then you will get maybe a 1/3 of the folks riding that lift heading over to the Main Face, if it's a windy day and/or just the Outpost triple(the one furthest from the summit lodge) is the only one running - most folks riding it are likely to either head back down the Northface or head over to Sunbrook for the exact same reason why most folks don't go from Sunbrook to the Main Face, it's a UPHILL hike (about 75 yards in this case). This "uphill hike" makes the slog from Superstar to K1 look like an overnight trip.

Ego - it finishes about 1/2 mile and 600 verts below the summit, and the vast majority of the folks that ride it (if it's not a wind hold day) are race team kids training right below it. We rode it a lot when the crowds (cough, I mean long line, no I mean large group of Mt Snow Enthusiasts) were clogging up the main lifts with lines out of the mazes.

Sundance - finishes about 1/4 mile and 200 verts below the summit, and again, most folks riding it tend to be using just the pod of terrain encompassing Shootout, Hop, Ridge and Uncles - with the exception of Ridge, not too many folks off the summit use those trails.

The Bluebird and Grand Summit (when they're both running simulatanesouly running mid day mainly on the weekend), I thought going into last season would be way more of the cluster F than it actually turned be, and I know that the management at Mount Snow was very aware of how much capacity they could be sending up to the top (in reality it's only about an additional 600 folks per hour (10 per minute, one every 6 seconds, but it's not more crowded) than it used to be). In reality last season, even when there wasn't always all the potential acreage availble to spread folks out on, as a 25+ year Mount Snow skier, the downhill density didn't seem any worse than it was before. That being said, I will totally concede that there's plenty of time when one can't safely make big high speed GS arcs down the trails at Mount Snow with their "normal" crowding. The simple fact that once you get to the summit that when the mountain is open that you have terrain to spead folks out that encompasses 360 degrees of options makes a difference.

Translation: I'm so used to the crowds at Mt Snow, it doesn't seem more crowded now than back when I got used to the crowds in the first place.

For me atleast, the Skye Peak area at Killington seems density wise far worse, with Superstar, Skyeship and Skye Peak Express all dropping folks off into a small area, and then to a lesser extent adding pressure to the trail pods that those lifts mainly service, Needles Eye and Bear Mtn Quads

So in other words, Superstar quad serving it's pod of Ovation, Superstar, Bittersweet, Skyeship serving it's pod of Needles Eye, Thimble, Cruise Control, Vertigo and Panic Button, and Skye Peak Express serving Dream Maker, Skyeburst and the Stash (Virtually no one goes to Bear from there when the Bear Quad is running) is more crowded than Mt Snow where it all happens on ONE PEAK with 5 lifts to the peak and a gazillion lifts down lower where Killington has 3 lifts to one peak. Got it.

Don't get me wrong. Killington can and does get crowded in places at certain times. But Mt Snow is far and away the poster child for the most lifts to one place, most lifts that end just below the lift you're on, and the most lifts that run parallel to each other. Not surprisigly, Mt Snow always has a high density of people at the peak on the weekends.

In closing, I would say all this additional bias hasn't made you sound any more "biased".

 

[drjeff]

True, but this is only part of the story. Folks riding the North Face lifts more often then not stay on that pod and are not interlaced with skiers coming off the HSQ and 6-pack. Same goes for Sunbrook as a short uphill skate is necessary to access the summit from the top of the Sunbrook quad. Skiers wishing to move on from the Sunbrook often opt to use the Beartrap double, completely avoiding the summit.

Yes, the main summit area where the HSQ and 6-pack download does get busy when both are running, which is usually only mid-day weekends, but with 360* of trail options and a large, flat summit area, it does not feel as crowded as the trail map might suggest.

So in other words, Superstar quad serving it's pod of Ovation, Superstar, Bittersweet, Skyeship serving it's pod of Needles Eye, Thimble, Cruise Control, Vertigo and Panic Button, and Skye Peak Express serving Dream Maker, Skyeburst and the Stash (Virtually no one goes to Bear from there when the Bear Quad is running) is more crowded than Mt Snow where it all happens on ONE PEAK with 5 lifts to the peak and a gazillion lifts down lower where Killington has 3 lifts to one peak. Got it.

Don't get me wrong. Killington can and does get crowded in places at certain times. But Mt Snow is far and away the poster child for the most lifts to one place, most lifts that end just below the lift you're on, and the most lifts that run parallel to each other. Not surprisigly, Mt Snow always has a high density of people at the peak on the weekends.

In closing, I would say all this additional bias hasn't made you sound any more "biased".

I guess that I'm not the only one with the same opinion about Mount Snow's lift system and crowding

 

[deadheadskier]

I would think all these arguments could be resolved with a simple equation. (Lift capacity per hour / skiable acreage)/avg skier visits per day.

That's probably pretty much the equation for CCC - Comfortable Carrying Capacity, which I almost always see discussed in expansion plan applications.

 

[meff]

I think Vail has too many HSQ. They have 31 lifts, and excluding the surface lifts, all but 2 of those are HSQ's (or 6 packs). Finding a Fixed grip lift on their trail map is like finding Waldo

Resorts focus so much on minimizing lines that the crowding is not done in the lines, but on the slopes. I remember when Ascutney added a HSQ, which was nice, but there were only two trails from the summit it served, one of which which was a double black. That other trail got icy, FAST

Vail might be mostly HSQ but they don't have any six-packs yet, I expect one will be replacing chair 4 in the next year or so as Vail has said they plan on addressing uphill capacity out of mid-Vail now that they are increasing capacity from the village this year. Thing is, Vail is big enough that the uphill capacity doesn't really result in that crowded of slopes, even if you loop say Avanti all day. Right now there is only one fixed grip lift on the mountain being the Sunup lift and I don't think you'll see that become a HSQ anytime soon. The High Noon chair was replaced with a HSQ last year.

 

[Newpylong]

Mount Snow > despite all those lifts dumping at the top, honestly the only run with a horrific crowding issue is Long John. Spread your visits throughout the year and you will see what I am talking about. Having a hord of people stopped at the top of the mountain is one thing, crowded trails are another, and they just aren't that bad, Looking at a trail map differs very much from reality when the whole mountain is open.

I consider Stratton and Skye Peak at Killington much worse.

 

[kickstand]

With the new triple chair going in at Cranmore this year I do wonder about 1 HSQ and 2 triples all unloading at the sumitt.
A lot of the crowding or lack thereof also comes down to layout of the mtn. How many unique routes are there off the chair and how quickly can that terrain disperse the skiiers.
Anytime there are trail junctions (especially above lifts where people stop to decide to take an uphill lift or ski further down) will be crowded.

The new triple doesn't look like it's going to drop people off all the way up where the other 2 lifts do. If that's the case, it shouldn't make the summit more crowded. You wouldn't be able to access the north side of the mountain from the new lift. I look at the new lift as a way to give better access to the east bowl and new south facing trails. Plus, getting to Koessler and The Ledges took a little extra effort in the past. Much easier to get to with this new lift.

I'll have to hit the place during a busy weekend, see how traffic is with the new lift. I don't think many people used the old double. Will be interesting to see how much use this lift gets, once the novelty of a new lift wears off.

 

[oakapple]

Absolutely Mt. Snow. On the summit alone, you have 2 North Face triples, 1 Sunbrook Quad, 1 6-pack, 1 high speed quad. Then a little below the summit you have Ego Alley and Sundance Triples. So basically every 10 seconds or so, you have a total of 26 people being unloaded at or near the summit. Sure there are a lot of trails up there, but the high traffic trails get insane when all the lifts are running.

You've got to take Sunbrook out of the discussion. If that didn't exist, a whole whole trail pod would be unusable. If anything, that lift is inadequate relative to the amount of skiable terrain back there. I'll bet they upgrade it to a high-speed quad one of these days.

There are two lifts on the north face. You'd clearly need at least one, or that trail pod wouldn't be usable either. I don't recall seeing both north face lifts in operation simultaneously. I gather that the Outpost lift is basically just a backup in case Challenger fails, as otherwise there'd be no way out of there. It's analogous to the three lifts at Killington's Snowshed, which almost never all run at the same time.

In my experience, when Sundance and Ego Alley are running (which is only on peak days), they serve the useful purpose of siphoning traffic away from the top of the mountain, and onto lesser-used trails. The existence of these lifts is a feature, not a bug.

That leaves the two high-speed lifts going from base to summit, and based on my visits last year, I'd say the merge at the top is definitely a problem. However, we probably need a few more years to judge it properly. A lot of Mount Snow's terrain never opened last year. When the mountain is fully open, there are a lot of ways to spread out from the top, so if there's a cluster-f***, it's only for a moment.

Mount Snow's weakness is not its lift system, but its trail system. The one and only easy route down is also the only way to reach a number of useful blue cruisers, so that easy route (Long/Little John) gets insanely crowded with all of the beginners who can't ski anything else, plus intermediates trying to get to more interesting terrain.

Skye Peak at Killington comes close too.

Here too, it's the trail system, rather than the lift system, that's at fault. They really ruined Great Eastern, when they re-routed it a few years ago. Right below the upper Skyeship terminal is a steep, narrow section that's very scary for beginners, though it's labeled green. That section is the pathway to many other trails, so it's heavily used by skiers of all abilities, and it's often a skating rink by mid-day. Return Great Eastern to its former route, and it would be a lot better.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I wonder what it would be like at Burke if there was ever enough people to warrent running both the fixed Willoughby quad and the HSQ. Those two lifts parallel each other and unload at the summit within 50 yards of each other. They both provide access to the entire upper mountain.

 

[Rogman]

So in other words, Superstar quad serving it's pod of Ovation, Superstar, Bittersweet, Skyeship serving it's pod of Needles Eye, Thimble, Cruise Control, Vertigo and Panic Button, and Skye Peak Express serving Dream Maker, Skyeburst and the Stash (Virtually no one goes to Bear from there when the Bear Quad is running) is more crowded than Mt Snow where it all happens on ONE PEAK with 5 lifts to the peak and a gazillion lifts down lower where Killington has 3 lifts to one peak. Got it.

Don't get me wrong. Killington can and does get crowded in places at certain times. But Mt Snow is far and away the poster child for the most lifts to one place, most lifts that end just below the lift you're on, and the most lifts that run parallel to each other. Not surprisigly, Mt Snow always has a high density of people at the peak on the weekends.

In closing, I would say all this additional bias hasn't made you sound any more "biased".

Skye Peak is definitely has a lot of uphill capacity, and on a busy Saturday there's a bit of a crush. But the layout tends makes it better than most. Surprised nobody mentioned Sunday River's North Peak; 3 lifts, the lodge, plus people coming back via Kansas/Lights Out, as well as skiing down from Spruce Peak. Upside, its a little spread out.

 

[Riverskier]

I dunno how i feel about it. I kind of agree.

I think I would rather ski on a slightly crowded slope than I would wait in a lift line.

I tend to agree. I HATE waiting in lift lines.

 

[deadheadskier]

I would think all these arguments could be resolved with a simple equation. (Lift capacity per hour / skiable acreage)/avg skier visits per day.

That's probably pretty much the equation for CCC - Comfortable Carrying Capacity, which I almost always see discussed in expansion plan applications.

Can't really think of a particular area in New England where these ratios jump off the chart, but Seven Springs in PA would be a good example. 15 lifts for only 32 trails on 285 acres. Their hourly uphill capacity is 30K.

On the weekends the place is a total madhouse. It would be even worse if half the people who went there didn't spend most of their time at the bars instead of on the hill.

 

[oakapple]

I tend to agree. I HATE waiting in lift lines.

The thing is -- and this gets back to Mount Snow -- once you get to the top, at least you have options about where to go next. There is no option if you're standing in a line, unless there's a shorter one at a lift nearby.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Seven Springs in PA would be a good example. 15 lifts for only 32 trails on 285 acres. Their hourly uphill capacity is 30K.

Camelback is even worse (it instantly came to mind), it can do 18,600 on 139 acres = 134 skiers per ski-able acre

Not saying Camelback is the worst (it probably isnt), but that's the example that came to mind immediately. If anyone knows of examples worse than this (or who is the worst) please post, I'd be interested to know this (because I'm a dork).

 

[x10003q]

For me there is no such thing as too much uphill capacity. If you go to Mt Snow on a holiday weekend, you know it will be crowded. Having massive uphill capacity at least keeps you on the slopes rather than standing in line ( and still having crowded slopes). Maybe more people are sitting on lifts vs standing in lines. That would be an interesting point to try to solve.

 

[skiNEwhere]

More people equal more lifts. more lifts equal more people. it's a catch 22

 

[EPB]

Tremblant has borderline too much capacity dumping out into the summit. Three high speed quads, a gondola and a triple all unloading into a very confined area. The lodge (which is possibly the largest summit lodge in the east) also adds to the congestion at the top of the mountain and it can be difficult to get from one side of the summit ridge to the other because the snow gets so softened up and deep from so many people walking around up there. After finding a trail, however, the congestion subsides fairly well- probably similar to the way that people disburse off of Skye peak at Killington (I haven't been there on a weekend since I was a child).

I'd also nominate Wildcat when the high speed quad is running at capacity. Also, I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but the two quads in the learning area and the whole base area at Okemo could qualify as excess capacity/poor design.

 

[riverc0il]

EPB, good call on Wildcat. The summit doesn't have enough acres to handle the traffic it gets. There are often only three groomed runs, six trails total. And when conditions aren't good there are only three runs period. That is a lot of traffic going down not many trails.

 

[tarponhead]

Hunter to much summit capacity?

1.6k of pure pyramid mountain to boot so what r they expected to do?