Skier demographics

[mikestaple]

I disagree...skiing is no less attainable to the middle class now that its ever been...all the cheap gear you can get online beats the hell out of the old "swap", season pass pricing at many resorts is lower than it was 10, even 20 years ago, there are all sorts of inexpensive day ticket options available...the difference is there are many other activities and consumer goods that are fighting for our discretionary income. More indoor, winter seasons for typically fall or spring sports like soccer and tennis...parents push their kids to be more well rounded, etc...those sports are taking away valuable winter weekend time. More and more people snowmobiling. Snowmobiles come with payments, additional seasons of soccer, etc come with fees...different shoes, etc. Household budgets are more strained because the avg consumer wants more, more, more of everything...so there's less for the really important things like skis and lift tickets. The avg American is more distracted by the myriad of activities available to them and their wallet. We need to grab them by their short and curlys, slap them out of their advertising induced stupor and get them to drop everything from Dec to March (I still want Nov and April for us!) and go freakin chill out on the hill ALL WINTER long...skis, boards, fruitboots, whatever, just buy a lift ticket, some hot chocolate, a turtle-clava and some apres beers!
That's my $.02...talk about value!

As a Gen Xer parent I have to agree with the above. You can't underestimate the East Germanization of sports down to the kindergarten level killing off the less manic or individual sports - much less the time to do them.

I make the effort to get the kids on the mountain and ski - but if your little one every hopes to play high school sports, then they have to get involved in these psycho leagues that run practices and game schedules like the East German Olympic squad. And you can imagine the "coaches" involved here - miss a practice and you don't play in the game. "Optional" additional training etc.

Great stuff for third graders. I'm thinking back to my ancient (early 80s) grade and middle school basketball league - that started in 5th grade. And comparing it to my son's basketball and baseball leagues (4th grade). Basically, he is looking at being out of playing options by 5th grade cus the casual leagues stop and the uber jocko leagues are all that are left ("why, yes we do need to take them out of school and travel to Maryland to find decent 10 year old lacrosse competition!").

It's pathetic. So if your kids want to play other sports, they will suck away the weekends that used to be able to snuck off to the mountain to ski. It can understated that this is a big issue for many families.

 

[mattchuck2]

I have a question. Does anyone think that the decline in skiing as a popular sport for the masses might be due to the decrease in the amount of people who live in the North and East? More and more people are moving to the South (the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Texas, etc.) and to the West (Nevada, Arizona). More people are living in tropical and desert climates than in the mountains. I mean, I don't really mind (more powder for me), but a lot of resorts have closed in the Northeast that I kind of wish were still open.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I have a question. Does anyone think that the decline in skiing as a popular sport for the masses might be due to the decrease in the amount of people who live in the North and East? More and more people are moving to the South (the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Texas, etc.) and to the West (Nevada, Arizona). More people are living in tropical and desert climates than in the mountains. I mean, I don't really mind (more powder for me), but a lot of resorts have closed in the Northeast that I kind of wish were still open.

I don't think skiing is declining as a popular sport..skier days have remained relatively flat for the past two decades..but it will decline in the next several years as the Baby Boomers become elderly..

 

[catskills]

I have a question. Does anyone think that the decline in skiing as a popular sport for the masses might be due to the decrease in the amount of people who live in the North and East? More and more people are moving to the South (the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Texas, etc.) and to the West (Nevada, Arizona). More people are living in tropical and desert climates than in the mountains. I mean, I don't really mind (more powder for me), but a lot of resorts have closed in the Northeast that I kind of wish were still open.

Excellent point. I would say this is a contributor, which will impact skier visits in the long term. This and the elimination of feeder ski areas and school bus trips in the Northeast, which I previously stated. It all adds up.

How to bring ski areas to the mass number of newbie skiers. Versus bringing the masses to the ski areas. Feeder ski areas near large population with loads of newbies on ski buses is the way to get maximum number of newbies hooked on the sport.

Casinos similar product. The more local casinos the more people get hooked on gambling and will want to vacation in places like Las Vegas.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Alot of high schools are no longer sponsoring ski clubs. One in Bucks county due to insurance reasons after the Natasha Richardson helmet case. Non-skiers always think of skiing as such a dangerous sport but you have a much better chance of being killed or severly injured on the drive to the mountain than skiing. I really feel like people have less disposable income as a % vs 2-3 decades ago. People just have more..bigger houses, bigger cars, credit cards up the wazoo, parking lots overflowing at Outback steakhouse and kids playing video games afterschool instead of playing in the neighborhood..well our society is changing..I really hope the big ski industry moguls..get it..come up with some good ideas..there will always be skiing but maybe not always so many places to ski at..

 

[AMAC2233]

The children of the baby Boomers are mainly generation Y who were born after 1976..some of the older Baby Boomers have Generation X kids but the majority are Generation Y..I'm one of the older Generation Y'sQUOTE]

I thought it was more like 1980 - 1995? I am technically a generation Yer, being born in the early 90's as the youngest child, of 4, to baby boomer parents of the 50's. Two of my siblings were born in the late 80's, which is really the heart of generation Y.

Small hijack...People keep saying that we're the "silent" generation; lucky because we had technology do everything for us. That's really not right though as most generation Yers were pretty old when computers became big. I was 8 when we got our first computer, my oldest sister was 13. And it was a huge deal. We didn't get cell phones until high school. Digital cameras weren't very popular until about 5 yeras ago, at least not around me. Facebook/myspace/youtube/wikipedia are all within the last 3 or 4 years. We were not born into this stuff. Another thing is that the whole high school/college thing is becoming a lot tougher. Sports and extra curriculars are practically necessary to get into college, along with community service, extravegent summer jobs, and anything else to bulk up your resume. Homework amounts are higher than ever. Subjects like science and history continue to grow as new stuff is added every year, which means longer readings and more tests. There is more to learn, new learning strategies, and more competition. Most of my teachers will admit that they would have had much smaller chances of getting into their alma matter now than they did when they applied.
Then again, everything is also completely different than what the older gen Yers had. Things change quick.

As for the skiing business in all this? Good luck to them. I think it will do fine through the next 20 years as the boomers retire, but when my generation retires? Who knows what social security will be like. From what they teach us in school this country is in for a big demograhic shift in the next half century, with the brunt of the problems resting in the hands of gen Y and gen Z. Bring it on.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

The younger members of Gerneration Y grew up with all those things and the next generation are the miillenials..who are not yet old enough to have carved out an identity. I didn't have the internet until I was 14 and that was prodigy where it took 10 minutes to see a boob. I do know that when I was growing up, I don't think kids were as over-scheduled..and I know that a few years after I went to college, there was a huge spike in college applications because there were more annual births in the early to mid 80s than the late 70s much of it attributed to the time when the largest chunk of baby Boomers were born..

This to me is really interesting...births by year in the USA..so for somebody born in 1979 it was easier to get into college than somebody my younger cousins ages..

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html

one thing to realize is that the average person today has less leisure in their life than a generation ago..this is attributed to longer work hours, longer commutes and cost of living increases..

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Don't worry .. there is an economic plan ( started by the banks last year) in place now to take care of all this .. called "The Great Recession" ..

just do us genXers and the youngsters a favor, keep working until you're 70, then die the day you retire so your SS bennies will still be there for us huh! :razz::wink::lol: just kidding OSME...I like the flavor you add to the AZ...keep on shredding...my grandmother skied until she was 93...she'll be 98 this year, she's getting her SS and then some. not that you could live off it anyway.

 

[JPTracker]

Once the baby boomers join the ranks of the elderly..it's going to be tough for the sport of skiing to continue to grow..the next generation after the Baby Boomers..Generation X has significantly less disposable income so they aren't introducing the sport to their kids as much as the Boomers did to their kids. I see a decline in skier visits in the future as skiing is expensive and with prices rising and income levels stabilizing..buying power is on the decline..just my inflation adjusted 2 cents..

This is why a lot of ski areas will be focusing on family's like Jay's latest campaign raising 'em jay. Notice that ad said juniors 17 and under ski free. A lot of Jay's package deals include Kids stay & ski free deals. They know that attracting new kids into the sport is their future. This is also why resorts will spend a disproportional amount of money on their terrain parks. They know that the kids using these parks are the future core skier base.

 

[drjeff]

This is why a lot of ski areas will be focusing on family's like Jay's latest campaign raising 'em jay. Notice that ad said juniors 17 and under ski free. A lot of Jay's package deals include Kids stay & ski free deals. They know that attracting new kids into the sport is their future. This is also why resorts will spend a disproportional amount of money on their terrain parks. They know that the kids using these parks are the future core skier base.

+1. Generally speaking ANY business that doesn't adapt their product to the changing demands of its customer base won't be in business very long. And if you've already got a customer, it's much easier to show them now that you have the ability to change with them to retain them as a customer than it is to attract a new customer.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

As GSS said the number of skiers/riders have remained the same for the past 20 years with alot less ski hills. Business consolidation is not restricted to snowsports.....airlines is one example.

Here in northern Vermont there are still alot of school groups and bus groups coming to the resorts. When I was a ski coach in Maine and we trained and raced at Shawnee the place was packed with school groups on weekday nights. I assume the smaller hills who offer night skiing still get a fair amount of school groups.

As mentioned there are alot of folks moving to southern climates but there are still ski hills there. Remember the highest peaks in the east are in North Carolina and they are no further away from the population centers than in the northeast. My neighbors, former Bush employees, moved to NC and they still ski.

 

[Riverskier]

As GSS said the number of skiers/riders have remained the same for the past 20 years with alot less ski hills. Business consolidation is not restricted to snowsports.....airlines is one example.

Here in northern Vermont there are still alot of school groups and bus groups coming to the resorts. When I was a ski coach in Maine and we trained and raced at Shawnee the place was packed with school groups on weekday nights. I assume the smaller hills who offer night skiing still get a fair amount of school groups.

As mentioned there are alot of folks moving to southern climates but there are still ski hills there. Remember the highest peaks in the east are in North Carolina and they are no further away from the population centers than in the northeast. My neighbors, former Bush employees, moved to NC and they still ski.

I can confirm that in Maine most schools do still offer group trips. And Shawnee Peak definitely seems to be the mountain of choice! Many weeknights the crowd is predominately school groups.

 

[PomfretPlunge]

Our school is in Washington DC and we do a bus trip up every Friday afternoon to Whitetail ski area in southern PA. Leave at 3, arrive at 5 and ski under the lights til 9. I tagged along as one of the parent chaperones. Started with 20 kids on the bus in Jan, had 40 or more by the end of the season in March Ages ranging from 9 to 18 so lots of future skiers I hope

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

+1. Generally speaking ANY business that doesn't adapt their product to the changing demands of its customer base won't be in business very long. And if you've already got a customer, it's much easier to show them now that you have the ability to change with them to retain them as a customer than it is to attract a new customer.

I'd like to staple that quote to someone's forehead. I'm talking myself blue in the face and beating my head against a block wall trying to get the right product for my market.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Our school is in Washington DC and we do a bus trip up every Friday afternoon to Whitetail ski area in southern PA. Leave at 3, arrive at 5 and ski under the lights til 9. I tagged along as one of the parent chaperones. Started with 20 kids on the bus in Jan, had 40 or more by the end of the season in March Ages ranging from 9 to 18 so lots of future skiers I hope

Awesome..that's how I got into skiing..with my middle school skiclub..we were lucky being only 18 miles away from Blue mountain.

 

[billski]

From the ski club perspective, I've been trying to find new ways to attract and keep skiers while keeping costs down and crank up the socializing aspects. The bus trips are not a happening thing in my sector. I spent last night at a resort ski trade show in Mass. generating new ideas for getting people to push themselves a little bit.

For example, some people really do get bored doing the same thing year after year. So for next year, I'm talking about organizing on-slope off-piste "tour" to entice people to move out of their comfort zone a little and try something new. No charge, done with a local who really understand the resort, sizes up the folks, splits into groups, and introduces them to woods skiing. "OK, that wasn't too bad, who's up for trying something steeper/longer/farther afield?" Augment that with some planning if it rains, we'll have a plan "B" and so on.

So I'd like to help people push their development envelope without much commitment at first. Do it with friends from the club. Commitment involves time, money and challenge, I want to minimize that.Once you find it's not so bad, you take it to the next level. I think there are a lot of skilled skiers who are simply under-confident or uncomfortable moving into the unknown. I may beta-test this idea at someplace like Burke or Jay. They are both willing to work with me. To be clear, I'm not talking about "stashes.", I'm speaking of the marked stuff.

I find it rather funny that many resorts just don't get it. They say, "oh, everyone knows where the good stuff is." Maybe I'm wrong, but everytime I go skiing and take someone off on a little "adventure" they always remark, "I never knew..." Also, a little "mountain wisdom" never hurt. Teaching people how to read the snow, the weather, the trails. Knowing how to pick the right trails for given weather and your own style is essential. It's not hard, but I'll bet very few people thinks about it. "Let's just do another blue..." I need not tell you guys that sometimes black trails can be in better shape and easier to skie than blues. Read the tea leaves.

I think some eastern resorts are beginning to warm to the idea that they have to make a little on-slope"people investment" without charging you for it. I have an issue with places like Loon where the Ambassadors are not allowed to take their "guests" off marked terrain or even marked woods. yeah, yeah, I understand the liability stuff, but I think we have to start getting serious about keeping skiers, and getting a "fire in the belly" of many lackluster skiers to convert them into ski/board obsessed AZ nuts

After all if ridership declines, we all lose.

 

[PomfretPlunge]

I think we have to start getting serious about keeping skiers, and getting a "fire in the belly" of many lackluster skiers to convert them into ski/board obsessed AZ nuts

After all if ridership declines, we all lose.

Totally agree.

I'd love to see a good base level of mogul instruction made available to the broad mass of intermediate+above skiers. Lots of people go and try the moguls but almost nobody ever makes any progress.

You see the initial enthusiasm on the mogul trails every weekend -- big crowds of people of all ages giving it a try....and all crashing out...and then giving up after an hour.

Imagine if all these people had a systematic way to learn bumps, that would teach them Absorption&Extension, forward edging, and quiet hands. If they knew they had a systematic, predictable path to learn, I think a lot of them would get psyched by the progress they were making and it would light that fire in the belly.

Plus bumps are such an amazing & enjoyable rollercoaster, that once people knew they could learn 'em, they'd get hooked.

 

[billski]

Totally agree.

I'd love to see a good base level of mogul instruction made available to the broad mass of intermediate+above skiers. Lots of people go and try the moguls but almost nobody ever makes any progress.

You see the initial enthusiasm on the mogul trails every weekend -- big crowds of people of all ages giving it a try....and all crashing out...and then giving up after an hour.

Imagine if all these people had a systematic way to learn bumps, that would teach them Absorption&Extension, forward edging, and quiet hands. If they knew they had a systematic, predictable path to learn, I think a lot of them would get psyched by the progress they were making and it would light that fire in the belly.

Plus bumps are such an amazing & enjoyable rollercoaster, that once people knew they could learn 'em, they'd get hooked.

Agree big time; we have to get resorts change their attitudes about instruction. Instead of seeing it as a cash cow, they should see it as an investment in the future.
So many people don't do lessons because the damn sport is so expensive to begin with.

Plus, they only offer mainstream board and ski lessons. If you want bump or woods, or park, you either have to pay for a pricey private lesson or go to some clinic held at an inconvenient time and place, and is usually not at the resort you want to be at.

Here's an idea: "Announcement: everyone interested in trying moguls for the first time and getting a tip or two, show up at X slope between 10 and 12...." That might be enough for some. The resort could make money on this too. Make everyone who shows up give their email and send them a discount coupon for a lesson, or clinic or whatever.... I think there are lots of ways to spin this.

I was talking to one area on Wednesday, I forget which one, that offers FREE lessons the entire month of December. Big kudos. I think that's a good start, but they have to extend it, since that offer often targets only beginners and December is the worst month of the season in terms of people's free time.

I suspect you'd run afoul of the PSIA politics if you tried to offer something a bit more casual - have some "ambassadors" take you into the fields, parks or woods. Just getting them comfortable being there is half the battle.

I think there are a ton of intermediates that really could break out of their ruts if given an inexpensive way to test themselves. In my mind, the idea is to get them exposed to and obsessed about other ways of skiing. I found skiing groomers for years and years to be dreadfully dull. I'm not looking to be the best, I'm looking to have fun. The bright side is that we'd have less gomers on the slopes too.

Then again, maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

 

[PomfretPlunge]

+1

Some friends & I from the Mogulskiing.Net board are thinking of trying the "Announcement: " idea in the coming year at some of our local areas.

That PSIA outfit looks pretty rigid & political, sheesh. There was some dialogue on some of the other boards about mogul technique & stuff and the PSIA folks were quoting some weird textbooks and qualifications exams or something. Didn't seem very connected to actually helping people to enjoy skiing or learn new things easily.

I have a friend who works over at KMS and I just have this sense that those guys have a lot of knowledge of really good technique that could help so many average skiers if it were spread more broadly thruout the sport rather than locked away in the narrow circles of the competitors.

 

[billski]

As GSS said the number of skiers/riders have remained the same for the past 20 years with alot less ski hills. Business consolidation is not restricted to snowsports.....airlines is one example.

Here in northern Vermont there are still alot of school groups and bus groups coming to the resorts. When I was a ski coach in Maine and we trained and raced at Shawnee the place was packed with school groups on weekday nights. I assume the smaller hills who offer night skiing still get a fair amount of school groups.

As mentioned there are alot of folks moving to southern climates but there are still ski hills there. Remember the highest peaks in the east are in North Carolina and they are no further away from the population centers than in the northeast. My neighbors, former Bush employees, moved to NC and they still ski.

I wonder what the demographic split is between regional customers and "from away". For the last few years, I am always bumping into a small but steady number of Brits who come to new england based on Resort promotions targetting them. It's no secret resorts are trying to attract people from father afield. So if the number are flat, that means the numbers of "locals" may be declining? That is, unless the number of Brits, etc. are statistically insignificant.... Just wondering....

Separately, I am fearful about what global warming is and will be doing to attendance. The Not In My Backyard behavior (no snow, no go) always drives demand (and drives me crazy). Will it get worse?