Snow Report Reform....

[JD]

We need real information, not the lies posted on Ski area reports. Things like, "it rained last night and we are dealing with breakable crust off piste, but the groomed snow is really nice." (yesterday at J). Instead they lie about getting all snow. So folks make the drive, by a ticket, and quickly realize it's BS, it DID rain, and the natural snow is toast. Even Stowe, who is fairly reliable with their reports, are full of shit on the conditions report. "elevation saved us...." No......it didn't.

Honesty by the Mgnt. would result in disappointment in the weathermen (snake oil salesmen), lies result in folks being disappointed in the Mtn. (J in this case should be ashamed of itself yet again for leaving out the important info.)


I don't ride lifts often, but in events like yesterday, 40 bucks to ride J in a foot of fresh after the lifts to the summit closed early the day before.... OK. Shiesters!

And weathermen....as a boater and skier I follow storms with eager anticipation all year. And all year it's the same thing. Sensationalize the next event to up traffic on your website. Problem is, your ALWAYS WRONG. For Gods sake, you call for 2 inches of rain in August, we get .2. You call for a foot of snow for the last 2 systems and we get 2 inches. I gotta say, you all suck at what you do and I don't say this to be mailciaous, just stateing the facts. Moderate your damn imaginations. We would all be so much happier expecting a few and getting several inches (like a Shag-hi hooker) then it ALWAYS being the opposite.

AND, if you are getting free ski days for running websites and are more worried about your relationship with the guy that gives you tickets then you are about you "customers" (victims), then you should run for public office, your lack of morals will serve you well in that arena.

I think I am gonna resort to random call to people outta the phone book.

"yea, you don't know me, but could you go outside and see how much snow you got last night, maybe give it a poke with your broom, see if it crunches...."

I understand ski areas are desperate, but why piss off your customers when the meterologists should take the heat?

I recomend mass emails and boycotts, and I will NOT be buying another day pass at J this year at least, maybe never. I will NOT waste a day on that drive.
Ahhh, feel better now.

 

[Greg]

AND, if you are getting free ski days for running websites and are more worried about your relationship with the guy that gives you tickets then you are about you "customers" (victims), then you should run for public office, your lack of morals will serve you well in that arena.

:-?

 

[Goblin84]

i hear ya. Luckly I have a few friends in various points all over New England. So i just call them up and ask about conditions or incoming storms. Sadly though, i cant return the favor. no one really cares if Manchester, NH gets hit with snow

 

[Greg]

I understand ski areas are desperate, but why piss off your customers when the meterologists should take the heat?

Or...maybe you can simply become a more informed consumer. It shouldn't be any secret that ski areas fluff their ski reports a bit. Watch short term forecasts (NOAA is good at that); monitor current conditions/temps, learn how to interpret radar; look for actual trip reports online from fellow skiers. By taking these steps, you will likely arrive at the mountain with a slightly more realisitic expectation of the conditions.

Or...perhaps you can just continue to bitch and take another shot at me... :-x

 

[loafer89]

For what it's worth, Sugarbush undereported their snowfall total for sunday IMO as they easily had 3" of new snow on the ground when we arrived, and I cleared another 2" of mixed frozen precipitation off of my car when we left at 2pm. Yet the mountain only reported 2" of new?

Yesterdays snow report did mention that the ungroomed areas had an icy crust on them.

 

[Phildozer]

I recomend mass emails and boycotts, and I will NOT be buying another day pass at J this year at least, maybe never. I will NOT waste a day on that drive.
Ahhh, feel better now.

Hmmm...

So you believe everything you read, eh?

You had a bad day. Conditions weren't what you expected. Get over it. It is part of skiing.

 

[threecy]

Skiing in less than favorable conditions is actually great practice. It's not at all uncommon to see skiers who are great in packed powder conditions but absolutely terrible in everything else because they've grown so accustomed to ideally groomed cruisers - stuff that develops bad habits.

 

[tcharron]

i hear ya. Luckly I have a few friends in various points all over New England. So i just call them up and ask about conditions or incoming storms. Sadly though, i cant return the favor. no one really cares if Manchester, NH gets hit with snow

Well, there's always McIntyre. :wink: People always want to know about those black diamonds up there..

 

[Goblin84]

Well, there's always McIntyre. :wink: People always want to know about those black diamonds up there..

Yeah, I hear they have some of the best and most technical skiing in the east.

They actually asked me to teach lessons their. I already work 5 days a week....no thanks. If im going to work on a mountain its (1) actually going to be a mountain....and (2) it will be comp crew in reward of vouchers

 

[56fish]

I recomend mass emails and boycotts, and I will NOT be buying another day pass at J this year at least, maybe never. I will NOT waste a day on that drive.
Ahhh, feel better now...JD

Again (re: post in "credit where credit is due...post). Thanks a million...if enough folks think this way about Jay I'll be able to ride past 11am Fri - Sun w/o having to stand in a liftline...:smile:

 

[JD]

It's all you. I bet Monday was a blast.

The argument that "It's expected that they lie a bit..." is great.
As far as me making my own weather calls, I agree, but am no expert.
And I am now over it.

 

[Greg]

It's all you. I bet Monday was a blast.

It was, thanks. :-?

 

[billski]

Reformed

As far as deciphering resort reports, it's actually quite simple. There is only one thing: BE VERY OBSERVANT OF WHAT THE REPORT DOESN'T SAY. It really is as simple as that. :wink:




If you had been skiing in the 70's (were you?) you would remember how horrible the reports were. You had to tune into the radio for the twice a day updates. Phone calls were expensive toll calls. You knew that what you heard was 50-75% BS. It was extremely frustrating and you didn't trust any report. We didn't have networking of skiers like we do today. You were lucky if you found one person that had been to the resort in the past 2 weeks.

"Reform" has happend. At least as much as it is going to. Now, especially with digital cameras, the resorts can't lie. Their reports still contain 20% BS, but it's a BIG improvement.

As others have mentioned, you have to do your own research. That's possible today, a quick look at the radar, check nearby other areas, traffic cams, web cams, trip reports, you have a much greater confidence in sizing up the situation.

 

[BLESS]

"I think I am gonna resort to random call to people outta the phone book."


HILARIOUS.




As far as reports go, I never even look @ the Resort. I just use weather.com and see what the conditions are like in the immediate area.....

 

[Breeze]

Take the 20 first skiers from the parking lot on any random day, anywhere in New England,and you'll get 20 different opinions of conditions early morning. Follow those 20 skiers over the entire day, and as conditions change, their opinions will change, and not necessarily converge.

No matter what the report from the mountain ops, some folks will be very happy, some just OK, and some disappointed to the bitch'in level. One report cannot possibly cover every skier's likes, dislikes, faves, and certainly can't overcome baldface mis-judgements made by the weather-folks which may have exacerbated some unreal expectations. Not to mention addressing some folk's personal expectations of their own ability to have a good time.

there is some dead space these days between the folks who WANT to Ski and WILL go out and the B*tchers and wh*ners who complain and stay home.

Attitude is the difference between experience and adversity. If you stay home and kvetch, you aren't helping anyone.

Breeze

 

[threecy]

Take the 20 first skiers from the parking lot on any random day, anywhere in New England,and you'll get 20 different opinions of conditions early morning. Follow those 20 skiers over the entire day, and as conditions change, their opinions will change, and not necessarily converge.

The absolute worst is during powder conditions! Often you'll see people side by side complaining - one complaining that not enough trails are groomed and the other complaining that someone groomed some of the trails!

 

[threecy]

I also heard a good way of putting it, in terms of why snow reports are why they are - people moan and groan about trail counts, etc, but enough still go by those 'inflated' figures to make it a necessity to do so!

 

[thetrailboss]

I recomend mass emails and boycotts, and I will NOT be buying another day pass at J this year at least, maybe never. I will NOT waste a day on that drive.
Ahhh, feel better now.

Sorry to hear what happened. Jay is notorious for their snow reports....and for other problems. Part of it is the reporting and part of it is the weather and rapidly changing conditions up there. These are pretty well known, and living in the NEK, I knew of them. In my times skiing there, I have had to turn around and head home on SEVERAL occasions due to wind or icing. My advice is to ALWAYS call someone there before you go and get the real deal.

My other advice is to ask Jay in the 2007 AZ Challenge about their reporting. I'm sure your input will be considered.

 

[salsgang]

On Shawnee Peaks home page today: "Mother Nature smiled upon us with 4 inches of Beautiful Powder on Monday! ". I was there Monday. They got some snow early, but they forget to mention all the sleet they got from 11AM on. The conditions were actually pretty good, but it shows why mountain web site reports have to be taken with a grain of salt and why this forum is a good resource!

 

[powderfreak]

We need real information, not the lies posted on Ski area reports. Things like, "it rained last night and we are dealing with breakable crust off piste, but the groomed snow is really nice." (yesterday at J). Instead they lie about getting all snow. So folks make the drive, by a ticket, and quickly realize it's BS, it DID rain, and the natural snow is toast. Even Stowe, who is fairly reliable with their reports, are full of shit on the conditions report. "elevation saved us...." No......it didn't.

And weathermen....as a boater and skier I follow storms with eager anticipation all year. And all year it's the same thing. Sensationalize the next event to up traffic on your website. Problem is, your ALWAYS WRONG. For Gods sake, you call for 2 inches of rain in August, we get .2. You call for a foot of snow for the last 2 systems and we get 2 inches. I gotta say, you all suck at what you do and I don't say this to be mailciaous, just stateing the facts. Moderate your damn imaginations. We would all be so much happier expecting a few and getting several inches (like a Shag-hi hooker) then it ALWAYS being the opposite.

I think I am gonna resort to random call to people outta the phone book.

"yea, you don't know me, but could you go outside and see how much snow you got last night, maybe give it a poke with your broom, see if it crunches...."

JD...I can only comment on the above parts of your rant, but when you went to Jay Peak, was there not 6-12" of white on the ground that probably wasn't there a couple days ago? My forecast busted due to the sleet that mixed in further north and areas south of I-89 in VT did not verify with 6"...however, north of there and up through northern NH towards Sugarloaf, many spots did verify with 6" or greater snowfall. Even outside of the mountains, the NWS co-op observers across northern New England generally ended up with a total of 4-8" of snow on the ground after having 0" in Saturday's report. You see, new snowfall is just a recording of how much snow ended up falling. No one is saying there is that much snow sitting on the ground untouched for you in the morning. Western areas do this as well...Alta gets 500" per year but they don't have 500" on the ground at the end of the year. How many people do you think argue about that fact? Not many.

Official snowfall measurement guidelines by the NWS/NOAA require official climate locations (say the Burlington airport) to measure the new snow every 6 hours during a storm, then clean the white board. Not many ski areas do that and if you think snowfall gets inflated by marketing, think about if we measured every 6 hours like the NWS does. That's why during a lake effect snowfall in Buffalo, NY the storm total can be 80" but the snow on the ground is only 40" due to constant settling. The idea behind new snowfall is not snow on the ground, which can change due to mixed precip on top, wind, compaction, settling, etc. If it snows 2" before changing to rain, it still snowed 2" and is reported as a snowfall total. Should you be suggesting that if snow falls then melts or settles, the new snowfall number should be decreased, if that were continued through the season by the time we hit May everyone would have a seasonal snowfall total of zero. In the summer when it rains 2" in a thunderstorm but an hour later you can't tell a drop fell because it all ran into the local watershed, does that mean it didn't happen?

I honestly do not think anyone lied about their snowfall reports this weekend and looking at my spreadsheet with snowfall totals for northern VT mtns, I see Jay Peak had a two day total of 12", Smugglers Notch had 12", Stowe had 12", Sugarbush had 7", and Killington had 5". That seems to make sense with the more mixed precipitation to the south? Plus, being a 2 day total does not mean there is 12" sitting there...it means that 4" fell one day, then 8" (snow and sleet w/ a lot of weight) fell on top of that but the net gain in snowpack was likely 6-8".

Average base depths can be used to figure out just how much snow is actually on the ground, too.

As for Stowe's "elevation saved us" comment...I cannot explain why or for what reason but the top 1,500ft did not have a crust that was inhibiting the skiing. The lower 500ft did but it was a stark difference from where I live in Burlington where the snow has a 1" thick crust half way down and trees still have ice on them. Mountain Ops who were on the mountain all night reported heavy fog on the top half with freezing mist at the bottom. The cloud bank/fog likely saved the snow from a true crust like that which happened lower down. The Ski Vermont Listserve had several members up on Mansfield skiing, I ran into many of them, and they can attest to no crust above 2,000ft. There was a light crust at the Toll House Double area and up at the base lodges but it disappeared at the junction of Chin Clip and Switchback near the elevation of the NASTAR course on Gondolier.

I'd just say unless you are on the mountain, refrain from making inaccurate statements.

This is my buddy Dave on Monday during the snow and sleet storm...definitely was good skiing.

Then, on Tuesday, this picture isn't very good for much but note the texture of the snow. We were half way down Chin Clip and bored so we wandered through the woods because it was just fun to be in natural snow even if it was one turn at a time. Crust doesn't spray and again, the net gain from the two days was probably 6-8". Maybe I was on the wrong mountain.