Snow Totals

[riverc0il]

notice a difference between how different ski areas are keeping track of snow totals? are they counting the october storm or not? jay peak resort is reporting in 34" but cannon is only reporting a season total of 5". jay peak added in an october storm that they did not open for and that completely melted before opening day. cannon is only factoring in snow since the beginning of snow making operations, so only factors in snow that actually effects the season. i thought this was interesting and calls into question how different ski areas report season total snow. cannon could easily add over two feet to their total if they counted the past month. thoughts on how ski areas measure season totals? :-? should it be measured any snow that falls during a ski year or only snow falling during operations? should storms before or after opening/closing dates be included, especially if they do not effect (i.e. melt) before full operations begin? hmmmmmmmmm........ just trying to keep it real... :wink:

 

[andyzee]

Let's make it a bit more confusing. Killington opened on 10/28 after recieving 30" of snow, they then closed for 3 weeks, during which time the snow melted. This past weekend they reopened to all manmade snow. Do we count the original 30"?

 

[ALLSKIING]

Let's make it a bit more confusing. Killington opened on 10/28 after recieving 30" of snow, they then closed for 3 weeks, during which time the snow melted. This past weekend they reopened to all manmade snow. Do we count the original 30"?

I think so..Its total snow for the season...

 

[KingM]

That's the difference between the base and the totals. After all, the snow could, and occasionally does, all melt off in January rains. I guess you could keep resetting the clock to zero anytime you hit bare rock, but that seems silly.

 

[riverc0il]

kmart gets a legit 30" count on that storm since they opened. no doubt in my mind. i am more taking issue with ski areas that will open a month after that storm who are increasing their season total based on snow that never effected operations.

if 3" fall at night then get blown off the mountain the next morning, that 3" is still legit even though it was never skied if the mountain is open. that's cool because they measure it as it falls. but does snow count before the season begins if it all melts? snow that falls and melts in season is fine by me to count. i think the issue becomes what is in season and what is out of season and are ski areas justified in padding their snow total with out of season counts? especially while more respectable ski areas are abstaining from artificially inflating their season totals. not argueing the difference between a base and a season total, but suggesting that how can people compare season totals when they are measured DRASTICALLY differently from ski area to ski area? that's 30" of snow that never really happened as far as the ski season is concerned. it happened at jay but not at cannon? but i skied 2' of snow in october in cannon so it was definitely there!? see where the issue comes into play? is an area utilizing that storm for season totals artificially inflating their season total? misleading perhaps?

 

[Breeze]

As long as all ski areas follow the same drill, yes. Count every inch that falls even if it melts. Snow does that as a matter of natural course.

Look at Wildcat, we had a huge dump in October that made people very happy, and it all melted. Wildcat will keep that in " 2005 season snowfall total" even though it was all gone by November 4th. It happened, it was skied, it was real, in its time.

AS far as TODAY's conditions.....that storm had no bearing on today's reality.

If you are thinking about a career in Database Management and Business Forecasting within the ski industry..... well go for it. I'm sure you see a market opportunity.


Breeze

 

[Treeskier]

Season count

Breeze. I want to thank you and your MT for being open and honest!!!

As for snow totals I feel any snow over a season counts even knowing it will melt. My question is when does the season start? Is it July 30th? So that freak storm in late Aug of an inch counts? or Sept.? I think so, as long as you have a start and stop date. I use July because you could be still skiing in July in NE.

 

[riverc0il]

Breeze, no question that snow counts for wildcat! the question being put forth here is what if wildcat did not open after that storm? would any of that snow really counted?

 

[bvibert]

I guess I never really thought about it, I don't pay much attention to the season totals anyway.

 

[catskills]

How do we count areas like Plattekill that is closed Monday thru Thursday. Can Plattekill count the snow that falls on the closed days? :blink: It could have snowed 12 inches on Monday and Tuesday. Then on Wednesday and Thursday that 12 inches melted because of 2 inches of rain and warm weather. Plattekill opens on Friday and they have the same amount of snow they had on Sunday. Therefore they can't count the foot of snow that fell on Monday and Tuesday right ? :argue:

This is real complicated stuff here.

Jackson Hole can't open until Dec 3 because of the Elk Migration. I guess JH can't count any of the snowfall until after the Elks have migrated right?

 

[ski_resort_observer]

The opening of JH has nothing to do with elk migration. They wait till the beginning of Dec(3rd-10th) every year due to business reasons. It's built into their permit with Teton National Forest. Most of the elk stay to the east side of the Snake River, JH is on the west side.

When the snow gets into the high country the elk and a few bison migrate to the National Elk Refuge next to the town of Jackson. They come from the North(Yellowstone NP) and the east(Gros Ventre range). They number around 8,000-10,000.

I lived in JH for many years and photographed the elk hundreds of times. I do have one picture of the refuge scanned so when I have some time I will post it. In the winter you can take a ride on a wagon right in the middle of the herd, it's pretty amazing.

If your curious here is a link http://www.fws.gov/nationalelkrefuge/

 

[skibum1321]

How do we count areas like Plattekill that is closed Monday thru Thursday. Can Plattekill count the snow that falls on the closed days? :blink: It could have snowed 12 inches on Monday and Tuesday. Then on Wednesday and Thursday that 12 inches melted because of 2 inches of rain and warm weather. Plattekill opens on Friday and they have the same amount of snow they had on Sunday. Therefore they can't count the foot of snow that fell on Monday and Tuesday right ? :argue:

This is real complicated stuff here.

Jackson Hole can't open until Dec 3 because of the Elk Migration. I guess JH can't count any of the snowfall until after the Elks have migrated right?

'
You're totally missing the point here. Riverc0il is saying that you need to define a start and stop to the season. If snow falls midweek for Plattekill they can obviously count it if it is in season - even with r***.

 

[riverc0il]

How do we count areas like Plattekill that is closed Monday thru Thursday. Can Plattekill count the snow that falls on the closed days?

you guys are totally missing my point. i am taking issue with storms before the ski area open that completely melt, I.E. have no effect on the area within it's actual season. mid-week counts at Plattekill if they have opened for the season and have not closed!

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I get your point, but really what difference does it make to an individuals ski experiences what the resorts claim at the end of the season?

The only snow total that matters is what your skiing on when you're there.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Whether it is right or wrong many resorts will take advantage of ANYTHING that will improve their status. That's just the way it is.

 

[riverc0il]

I get your point, but really what difference does it make to an individuals ski experiences what the resorts claim at the end of the season?

The only snow total that matters is what your skiing on when you're there.

my skiing experience isn't going to change at all. however, it is manpulating stats to improve an image and i think it's important businesses get called out for it. sooner or later snow totals would eventually double if places aren't getting called out for it. as if jay peak doesn't get the highest total of snow in the northeast already? did they really need to pad their stats another three feet? it is of my opinion that educated consumers need to call places out when they misrepresent themselves. it doesn't directly effect me, but i know a LOT of people rely on those types of stats to make decisions.

 

[bvibert]

it is of my opinion that educated consumers need to call places out when they misrepresent themselves. it doesn't directly effect me, but i know a LOT of people rely on those types of stats to make decisions.

Good point. I wasn't really with you on this one at first, but when you put it that way...

 

[ski_resort_observer]

snow total stat does not mean much

As it has been pointed out a resort's "season/snow total is a stat that can be very misleading.

People are wondering why the Bush has so little terrain open compared to other regional resorts. Their "season snow total" on their snow report lists 43", almost 4'. As you all know there isn't anything remotely close to 43" on the mountain.

I don't really fault the resorts for using this stat. I think the consumers need to realize as to what that stat represents.

Even if you live in Jersey you know that the season total for snow does not represent the amount sitting on the lawn.

Maybe people get too wrapped up in the stat game and lose sight of what info means something worth knowing.. Like someone already said, it's the top few inches of the snow that matters.

Conversly I strongly agree that any product whether it's skiing conditions or your car should not be misrepresented. Course, that's where you enter the marketing "grey area" .

Would a small disclaimer like "the snow total represents the amount of snow that has fallen since Oct 1st and in no way represents the current condition of the skiing", make any diference? Should resorts do this?

 

[riverc0il]

i think it would be a terrific idea for ski resorts to specify when they began measuring since it varies.