Stowe - Upper Liftline

[urungus]

Upper Liftline was listed as open on the trail report yesterday, but was roped off while I was there. Same thing happened last time I was there. Is the portion of this trail above Haychute ever open? Or is it permanently closed like the upper reaches of Red Line at Magic? IMO this is the only portion of the trail that looks worthy of the double black rating. Coverage looked solid, but there were no tracks, except for a couple at the extreme (chair lift riders) right of the trail. It seemed like the chairlift was getting pretty close to the ground in spots, maybe that is the reason? But then why list it as open?

Coverage at Stowe is still great by the way, and the snow was soft enough that I summoned the courage to head down all of Goat for the first time. Didn’t seem as steep as I was fearing, and it was a great day to do it, but I would hate to tackle that run when it was icy. Even though the mountain as a whole felt empty, there was a surprising amount of traffic on Goat, which meant frequently pausing at the side so the hotshots could thread the needle and blast by. At one point while I was bent over sucking wind, I suffered the humiliation of being passed by a guy with a trio of little tykes maybe 6-8 years old, all happily power wedging their way down.

Looking up Goat

 

[BenedictGomez]

Liftline was once part of Stowe's famed "Front Four" double diamonds. Then, (about 25 years ago maybe?) some moron decided to ruin it with dynamite and regrading etc... and now it's no worse than a single black diamond at any point, and I'd argue most of it is an intermediate trail when groomed.

Yet solely for marketing purposes so they can still say "Front Four", they left the double diamond rating intact after they took all the teeth out of the trail, but the rating is now a total joke.

 

[tumbler]

I've never skied Stowe, how do the front four compare to trails at SB?

 

[slatham]

Friends of mine who have a place there told me when I was there in early March that it was closed due to low clearance to lift caused by snow depth. They indicated it had been opened earlier in the year. When I was there 2 years ago it was opened and I skied it. So unlike the section of Red Line which is always too low, upper lift line depends on snow depth.

Personally I think that section deserves a double diamond rating.

 

[urungus]

Personally I think that section deserves a double diamond rating.

Agreed. But not the rest of the trail. Hopefully some day the upper part will be open when I am there. Frustrating that the trail report can’t be trusted though.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I've never skied Stowe, how do the front four compare to trails at SB?

The other 3 trails are legitimately double diamonds. Goat & Starr are two of the best sort of trails New England has to offer. In terms of Sugarbush, it's tough to compare terrain, but I guess it would be most similar to stuff off Castlerock, though I'd call the 3 Stowe trails generally a bit harder.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I think that section deserves a double diamond rating.

I think the top is a single black diamond, though it will be interesting to hear what the consensus is.

 

[Tonyr]

I've never skied Stowe, how do the front four compare to trails at SB?

I would say that the Front Four at Stowe and the Castlerock area at Sb are pretty similar difficulty wise. One of benefits of skiing the most challenging runs at Stowe is that you can pretty much hit them all off of the high speed four runner quad whereas at SB you need to move around quite a bit on slow lifts to hit all of their best stuff. With that being said Rumble and most of Liftline at SB are a little more challenging than Goat or Starr at Stowe in my opinion. Black Diamond Rush on Mt Ellen is also right up there with anything at Stowe.

As stated earlier Liftline at Stowe should not be rated as a double black. I haven't skied Upper Liftline but that portion of the run looks like it would qualify as one.

Tony

 

[Zand]

Agreed. But not the rest of the trail. Hopefully some day the upper part will be open when I am there. Frustrating that the trail report can’t be trusted though.

I believe you were there when I was there. I was under the impression that upper Liftline was closed due to too much snow...not much room to ski under the chair. I've skied that section years ago and the rocks were much more noticeable.

However, upper Goat was also closed that day a month ago and I have no idea why.

 

[BenedictGomez]

upper Goat was also closed that day a month ago and I have no idea why.

Could this be a Vail problem? I've anecdotally heard Vail is much more strict in trail closings than most.

 

[slatham]

Could this be a Vail problem? I've anecdotally heard Vail is much more strict in trail closings than most.

Yes. I was there at this time last year and while it was "firm and fast" it definitely softened up in the PM. All 4 were closed. At Magic or Sugarbush (or MRG I would guess) they would have been open, even in the morning. I mean it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for the east coast.

 

[Zand]

Could this be a Vail problem? I've anecdotally heard Vail is much more strict in trail closings than most.

Never thought about it that way but you might be on to something.

FWIW, upper National was open and a total sheet of ice. Much uglier than Upper Goat looked.

 

[cdskier]

Yes. I was there at this time last year and while it was "firm and fast" it definitely softened up in the PM. All 4 were closed. At Magic or Sugarbush (or MRG I would guess) they would have been open, even in the morning. I mean it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for the east coast.

MRG actually does close terrain when it gets a bit too firm. For example today they closed a lot of their steeper terrain when temps dropped meanwhile Sugarbush kept all their terrain open. If something is closed at Sugarbush, you know it is bad!

 

[SnowRock]

Was up the last two weekends of March and know it was closed then due to clearance. And was certainly necessary then. Not sure if that is still the case… beyond the blame Vail default, I think they also have a new patrol head. Maybe why it has seemed sometimes a bit more conservative with openings this season? They also always close the ungroomed steep stuff during the spring when it freezes up and open it during the day as it softens.. they may be slower at that this season, who knows.

I do think that upper part of liftline merits a double rating. There are some shark fins and tight lines that need to be navigated and it can get skied off quickly. Generally speaking, there are some steep sections to liftline, but with the width, agree it skis more like a single black.

Goat and Starr are as tough as anything inbound in the east in my opinion. Smuggs and Bush certainly have some trails that are similar. National has the drop in but then is closer to liftline. I’d say lookout offers more of a challenge. Its also one of my favorite runs after a big dump. It can be a real blast with boulders almost getting pillow like.

Did the bootpack up hayride twice after the last big storm when everything was on wind hold and hit lookout first. Was an absolute blast.

 

[SkiingInABlueDream]

Just keep skiers right, directly under the downside of the chair. If the coverage is deep enough that there're potential clearance issues, then you don't have to worry about hitting rocks because they're definitely covered. The only challenge is pacing yourself between down-moving chairs, but that should be viewed as part of the fun. And If the base is sooo deep that you could touch the rope then the chair won't be running at all.

Edit. And IMO upper LL and National warrant double black ratings, but the rest of those runs are single black but not blue.

 

[kingslug]

Very deep..clearance issue..vail is a bit conservative with openings...upper Goat is one sporty run!

 

[kingslug]

A good way to check out starr and lookout is from the s53 cross over from middle liftline

 

[BenedictGomez]

And IMO upper LL and National warrant double black ratings, but the rest of those runs are single black but not blue.

I was clearly out-voted in my belief the top of Upper Liftline should be single black, but I cant imagine the rest of liftline being a black diamond. It's literally wide-open and not very steep. There are portions of lower Nosedive that are steeper and it's a blue.

 

[SkiingInABlueDream]

I was clearly out-voted in my belief the top of Upper Liftline should be single black, but I cant imagine the rest of liftline being a black diamond. It's literally wide-open and not very steep. There are portions of lower Nosedive that are steeper and it's a blue.

I had forgotten that the lower parts of LL and Nat'l are separately named and actually rated blue. I do agree with those ratings.
I was referring to the middle parts of both runs (LL below haychute and Nat'l below its crossing with LL, and both above where they become officially blue obviously). IMO those runs are definetely not blue. There are sections of LL that could be blue-square pitch but there are 1 or 2 steeper pitches that make it black, especially when ungroomed. And when groomed both of those would present more challenge than say Lord or Standard. All IMO.

Edit. Further thoughts. Ive never seen Nat'l groomed and LL only once or twice. (I usually ski Stowe only in early-mid Dec.) But in my experience a groomed LL is peppered with water bars and scraped to ice by late morning. Not a blue square cruiser IMO.

 

[kingslug]

The entrance to middle LL is usually icy as hell. My wife clearly does not like it. Once past that its easy.