Tenney Mountain

[Newpylong]

As I recall he's short compressors but not pumps - there was limited snowmaking on both the tubing and main hills in the last few years, possibly with rental compressors. They've got a couple million gallons of water though it doesn't recharge as well as Magic's. Assuming that the main pumps are online they have the same GPM on Eclipse trails as Magic does running both loops combined.

Compared to Magic, Tenney is short
1. Compressors - Magic has 5000 CFM of electric air, Tenney is stuck renting and maybe also paying for offroad diesel. I expect they can get rentals if they're willing to pay for it.
2. Pump VFDs - Convenient for the crew, but this should show up in the power bill rather than in output.
3. Modern HKDs - Magic has around sixteen portable HKDs, plus around 50-60 towers. Often they're split between HKDs and air hogs because anything above Trick or Talisman is too low pressure for HKDs, and because Green Lift has exactly one permanent HKD tower so they run Rats to use up the rest of the air. Tenney could match Magic's Green Lift low E fleet for ~$160k assuming they order soon enough.
4. Pipe - Tenney had gotten their snowmaking system working enough to run part of the Eclipse pod at least, and they have at pipe for repairs on site. They had more terrain covered than Magic when both systems were fully functional (claimed 70% versus 90%) and both trail pods have abandoned lines and lines without snowmaking.

Tenney's for sure not in as good a shape as Magic overall, but they can order HKDs, rent 5000 cfm of air, and get two routes off the Eclipse pressure tested and mowed for this season. Talisman and Sorcerer and Trick and Upper Carpet and Medium have the Impulse towers that give Magic a snowmaking edge, and Black plus Red easily beat Hornet for uphill capacity and redundancy to the summit. Green Lift terrain at Magic is really hamstrung in marginal by not having fixed towers or more sleds.

Yes, pumps and compressors both shared the same Cummins drivers and he had to cannibalize the compressors to replace the motors on the pumps that were damaged with water intrusion and theft of coolant (copper lines). The same permitting issue remains regardless. Without him confirming one way or the other, I assume their limited snowmaking was not only a technical limitation but not wanting to get the notice of DES. I just don't see how he could get a waiver on those units and operate them legally, but I guess weirder things have happened.

He doesn't need 5000 CFM of air until if and when they can pump more water, but renting is their best option. If there is enough power into the base, they can put in a couple 3PH pedestals on the pad and rent a couple towable 1600 CFM outdoor rated rotaries and that would be sufficient. This is what I did some years. Short of that, they have the diesel storage if they want to get diesel towables. More work keeping them going though, but they're easier to get.

VFDs are not an option on diesel pumps (if they were permitted).

There is nothing steep at Tenney, he would be able to get a couple routes covered with a small fleet of the 10' sleds for a year.

But as I said, that pumphouse really needs to be ripped and replaced with electrics and modern controls to be operated by someone without a PHD and to be more efficient.

 

[Newpylong]

After the past 4 years saying Magic’s lifts are in any way a plus for them seems laughable.

Installation issued aside, they are. Parts are readily available for Heron-Poma/Poma and Borvigs. They are fixed grip, far easier to maintain and operate than detachables. Their clientele is not screaming for detachables and once the quad is finally spinning they will have summit redundancy. They have a mid-mountain lift for early and the off-season. Overall it's a really good setup.

 

[IceEidolon]

Seconded on the lifts - Magic has a better lift maintenance department than Tenney does, more experience, better records, and has already done some major repair items, and will soon (probably) be up one summit chair with nearly 3x the summit pph.

As for the pumps, if they only have diesel pumps currently then they need to have already talked with Torrent, Ratnik, or another pump supplier, or maybe about replacing the drives on their existing pumps with electrical drives. They had different capacities and HP ratings on the base area pumps, I figured at least some of those were electric.

5000 CFM was putting them directly against what Magic can do on the Green chair terrain. Half that is sufficient for 20 Impulse sleds and an air-water gun or two, or several air-water guns on the Hornet summit. You could run with even less air.

Not sure why you're bringing up VFDs on diesels. VFDs don't generally add capacity, just efficiency and convenience, and nobody said Tenney had or needed VFDs.

 

[Newpylong]

None are electric or I would have said they were electric and not made a point about DES licensing. I spent quite a bit of time in that pumphouse. There are 4 total, 2 upper mountain, 2 lower in dissimilar pairs. I guess they could replace just the motors, but that's not really a good use of money. They are horizontals (like all diesels), which are not as efficient as vertical turbines.

You mentioned Tenney is short VFDs so I was just saying they aren't an option until the diesels are replaced, that's all. But yeah, huge disadvantage. Their controls are ridiculous.

 

[IceEidolon]

Per some cryptic comments under FB videos they're having a crew put up mounting posts for low E towers this fall. No word on how many or what kind yet.

 

[SkiNewEngland.net]

Reopening Work Continues at Granite Gorge and Tenney Mountain - NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com

 

[thetrailboss]

Looks like it will be another sort-of ski season for Tenney. There’s a lot of work still to do from what I’m seeing.

 

[SteezyRob]

Reopening Work Continues at Granite Gorge and Tenney Mountain - NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com

Oh yeah, forgot about Granite Gorge trying to reopen. Nice little hill. Not sure what they mean by being "reopening in a safe and inclusive manner" but ok lol.

 

[SteezyRob]

Looks like it will be another sort-of ski season for Tenney. There’s a lot of work still to do from what I’m seeing.

Would you say it's worth it to skin up? Never skied there but I want to.

 

[thetrailboss]

Would you say it's worth it to skin up? Never skied there but I want to.

Going off of memory from 2005 or so, it has some mellow terrain with a few steeper areas here and there.

I also saw on FB that they are tearing apart the lodge right now and installing new carpet and everything. Seems awfully late in the offseason to be doing that work. I just don't understand what they are thinking. It seems like they intend to continue to be amateur ski operators. I just don't get where they are getting their money and/or generating money to pay for these projects. I don't want to see this place go under again, but I just can't understand what is going on.

 

[Newpylong]

I don't think many people understand their angle. I don't believe anything with that place until I see it.

 

[Smellytele]

I don't think many people understand their angle. I don't believe anything with that place until I see it.

Newpylong is to tenney as hughconway is to magic. Just joking - it does seem late to be doing that.

 

[Newpylong]

Shots fired lol.

 

[IceEidolon]

Somebody is actually throwing some money - or at least credit - at them. They posted a trailer full of HKDs, dozens of 30 and 20' towers and some 10' sticks and sled frames too. More than I figured they'd end up with. Plus they mentioned fans being ordered. That's a long way from "we have a few used fans and the old air hogs" last go around.

Now, they're also starting to install tower guns on Thanksgiving week, but if they actually have enough backing to do things right the first time instead of patching something almost close enough?

I think any actual operation this season is a bonus. They *might* have found the money pot too late for this season or they *might* be playing the same old game all over again. If they go into next season with a working snowmaking system, tower guns covering three trails down off Eclipse, a rehabbed lodge, two lifts, a decent cat, and mostly the same leadership/senior staff? Then I'll take them seriously as a ski area. Until then, I'll leave Tenney in the Blue Knob category and not the Timberline and Magic category.

(Hugh, if you want to spill the dirt on Blue Knob, go right ahead. Talk about wasted potential.)

 

[mbedle]

Somebody is actually throwing some money - or at least credit - at them. They posted a trailer full of HKDs, dozens of 30 and 20' towers and some 10' sticks and sled frames too. More than I figured they'd end up with. Plus they mentioned fans being ordered. That's a long way from "we have a few used fans and the old air hogs" last go around.

Now, they're also starting to install tower guns on Thanksgiving week, but if they actually have enough backing to do things right the first time instead of patching something almost close enough?

I think any actual operation this season is a bonus. They *might* have found the money pot too late for this season or they *might* be playing the same old game all over again. If they go into next season with a working snowmaking system, tower guns covering three trails down off Eclipse, a rehabbed lodge, two lifts, a decent cat, and mostly the same leadership/senior staff? Then I'll take them seriously as a ski area. Until then, I'll leave Tenney in the Blue Knob category and not the Timberline and Magic category.

(Hugh, if you want to spill the dirt on Blue Knob, go right ahead. Talk about wasted potential.)

Beyond wasted potential. The amount of undeveloped ski acreage they own is unbelievable.

 

[IceEidolon]

Yeah, the previous owners could fuck up a wet dream.

I wish whoever the new owner is all the success in the world. Mike too, really, nothing personal against him and he's still clearly involved.

 

[danimals]

Somebody is actually throwing some money - or at least credit - at them. They posted a trailer full of HKDs, dozens of 30 and 20' towers and some 10' sticks and sled frames too. More than I figured they'd end up with. Plus they mentioned fans being ordered. That's a long way from "we have a few used fans and the old air hogs" last go around.

Now, they're also starting to install tower guns on Thanksgiving week, but if they actually have enough backing to do things right the first time instead of patching something almost close enough?

I think any actual operation this season is a bonus. They *might* have found the money pot too late for this season or they *might* be playing the same old game all over again. If they go into next season with a working snowmaking system, tower guns covering three trails down off Eclipse, a rehabbed lodge, two lifts, a decent cat, and mostly the same leadership/senior staff? Then I'll take them seriously as a ski area. Until then, I'll leave Tenney in the Blue Knob category and not the Timberline and Magic category.

(Hugh, if you want to spill the dirt on Blue Knob, go right ahead. Talk about wasted potential.)

Blue knob...
What an absolute waste of a gem in PA. Each time I have been, I could not believe the amount of natural snow on the ground. The views are astounding, and the riding and terrain is so good, that everyone should be flocking there. That is about where the praise ends.

They usually get their snow later in the winter, so they need snowmaking to get off the ground. I have read that their snowmaking system is about 30-50 percent operational, and I believe it. Their lifts are some of the sketchiest lifts Ive ridden. I kid you not, There was so much bounce on the top to bottom double (forget what its called) that when it stopped, my board touched the ground on an open ski trail below.

They have a hotel/condo that is pretty far from the main lodge, and they used to have a lift connecting the ski area to the hotel. That was removed a long time ago. It is sad really, Blue knob should be the premier ski area of PA. They get the snow, they have the elevation and temps for great snowmaking, and they have the foundations for ski in ski out. They could even cut one trail from the hotel to the bottom of the main lifts to avoid needing another lift to connect to the hotel. But unless they get owners with some money to get snowmaking online, rebrand themselves (so many in PA still think of the blue mountain area when blue knob is mentioned), and actually advertise that they exist, they will always be known as the place you only go to after a 3 foot storm.

Back to Tenney,
I think they are in a better spot to come back now then they were during the first rebirth a few years back. Seeing the actual investment into new snowmaking is promising. They will be able to open more consistently once online, which gives them more opportunity to be open and make money. Being pretty much in a college town in ski country, some well marketed discounts and events should have that place packed. Maybe even some nigh skiing so the college kids have somewhere to go after classes.

 

[jimmywilson69]

oh Blue Knob... Agreed they need an infusion of money, like they should regularly play the powerball. When the snow is good, its better than Elk. the problem is the snow is not always good. the lifts are old, and you have to wonder how they still work and are certified. Snowmaking is a shit show. Unbelievable potential though

 

[doublediamond]

They should carve out a carpet on Johns Park for first timers. Relegate that whole platter area to tubing as it’s too isolated from the rest of the place and across the main driveway in to be decent learning terrain. Trillium to Buttercup would be a green at most areas. Just need appropriate signage so beginners don’t send it down the pitch at the bottom of Eclipse. The Eclipse side should be fully lit for night skiing and wall to wall snowmaking. Set up Friday night beer league racing to bring folk to the mountain and to support the already popular bar.

 

[Newpylong]

Well I'll be, the equipment showed up. Now to see what his long term plans for the pumps are, diesels are unsustainable. For the air next year he can get into electric fairly easily by installing a couple big Rotary Screws if they don't want to go the Centac route. Those can even be leased or installed outside permanently. I've done both.

IMHO they need to be careful about installing too much fixed infrastructure or having an excessive snowmaking footprint in general until they've seen what type of ROI ie how much traffic they're going to get. With those lifts they're only ever going to be a niche market so it will be interesting to see how far that can be stretched. So I would focus on 2 routes off Eclipse for this year, and depending on how that goes, another off Hornet for next.

One item I did not look too closely at are the lights when I was there 5 years ago. I assume substantial work is required. Agreed on the Platter, it's too far out of the way for beginners, keep it all tubing. I would personally put a carpet right where the old handle tow is outside the lodge there.