The ALTERRA SUCKS Thread

[EPB]

I think we are in violent agreement on 90% of this issue, but I'm not tracking here. The higher valuations achieved in this re-financing were precisely BECAUSE of the re-risked P&L. The shift to IKON took place during the lifetime of the original vehicle, so it's natural that the people who benefited were the investors who took the risk to stand up Alterra w/o IKON having been proven. The new investors enjoy the benefit of a much more secure and predictable P&L.

Here's what you're missing: new investors want more than a sleepy de-risked season pass printing machine. They want it to grow, and a business that isn't taking share isn't a good growth story. They need to be sold on growing a combination of skiers, rev/skier and ancillary revs from real estate, etc. I suspect further acquisitions was likely part of the story, too (see Basin, A for example).

This couldn't be further from the case, as I precisely stipulated further down in my post. I'm pushing back against the comically simplistic narrative from some that mega passes are responsible for all/substantially all of the crowding on hills near mountain communities that have seen massive population growth for decades. FWIW, used to be a SB guy. Currently a Mammoth guy and haven't noticed much of a difference there either tbh

So your thesis is that locals are the main driver of growth, not the enthusiasts (like here) or affluent Northeasterners (you'd think the ski market were a pure duopoly if you listened to the network compared of 30 something's with disposable income). I certainly agree that's been a force in UT and the front range, but it certainly feels like there's been a huge uptick in destination travel to be laid at the feet of EPKON in the last decade. Day trippers aren't a sexy growth story for the stock/CV either. It's part of the mosaic, but the massive shock to the way people in the wealth/population centers back east are the big tickets.

Good for you - hope you've been well.Good luck and have fun with the storm!

So asking people to support their declared hypotheses is "wanting someone else to do the work"? No. Someone said something over the top, unsupported by any evidence, and I asked them to prove it. It's that simple. Your references to backing out reported data from EPKON to get to underlying change in skier visits among indies is the first attempt I've seen at same.

As mentioned, there's massive anecdotal evidence that more than a wave of UT transplants are to blame (Jackson Hole and Aspen as other examples). Prevailing sentiment is that EPKON is to blame. This was a nod to your well executed sleight of hand to demand burden of proof from your interlocutor when you're the one bucking conventional wisdom (while lappearing to knowing full well the data you ask for isn't really available).

 

[BenedictGomez]

there's massive anecdotal evidence that more than a wave of UT transplants are to blame (Jackson Hole and Aspen as other examples). Prevailing sentiment is that EPKON is to blame.

Your examples are all good ones, but I'd add Stowe as an even more obvious example of mega passes directly causing crowds.

From 2018 to the beginning of 2024 the entire state's population only increased by about 24k. That's minimal, especially when considering only a small portion of that already small number demographically have the age, economics, proximity to Stowe, and desire to ski.

Golly then, whatever may have caused all the chaos?

 

[EPB]

Your examples are all good ones, but I'd add Stowe as an even more obvious example of mega passes directly causing crowds.

From 2018 to the beginning of 2024 the entire state's population only increased by about 24k. That's minimal, especially when considering only a small portion of that already small number demographically have the age, economics, proximity to Stowe, and desire to ski.

Golly then, whatever may have caused all the chaos?

It's funny, sometimes the examples right in front of your face are the easiest to miss. That's definitely the super pass-driven shift in behavior of the affluent masses of the Northeast. If you were still sitting in an office in greater NYC several days a week, the you'd get the impression that Epic and Ikon were a literal duopoly.

 

[kingslug]

Stowe...they're sure ain't more locals going...certainly not on weekends.
The lot is full almost every day now...weekends are pretty huge.

 

[EPB]

Stowe...they're sure ain't more locals going...certainly not on weekends.
The lot is full almost every day now...weekends are pretty huge.

I'm surprised it hasn't gone onto a premium tier yet. Seems like a candidate to get the Whistler/PC treatment.

 

[Edd]

I'm surprised it hasn't gone onto a premium tier yet. Seems like a candidate to get the Whistler/PC treatment.

I’ve thought the same, hopefully it would mitigate Stowe’s crowds a bit. Just checked the Epic site but can’t see the pass options because they’re off sale. Are PC and Whistler on higher tiers though? Because I’m not hearing about lower crowds at those places.

I had resigned myself to go back to Wildcat next year but, after buying the Indy yesterday, I’m starting to have 2nd thoughts.

 

[EPB]

I’ve thought the same, hopefully it would mitigate Stowe’s crowds a bit. Just checked the Epic site but can’t see the pass options because they’re off sale. Are PC and Whistler on higher tiers though? Because I’m not hearing about lower crowds at those places.

I had resigned myself to go back to Wildcat next year but, after buying the Indy yesterday, I’m starting to have 2nd thoughts.

I was at Wildcat for the first time in a couple years with my brother two weeks ago from LSU Thursday. The new bridge and fresh coat of paint were the only saving grace. Lynx was actively chewed up by the cats and not skiable. Very annoying. The rest of it skied okay. It was wild taking the Mountaineer for the first time at Attitash though. That thing was 25 years overdue. Booted up at the Adventure Center for the first time in my life, too. Very half a$$ setup, but nice to at least see something over there.

Speaking of 2nd thoughts, I kinda regretted adding Whistler to the list because I think they at least used to have a pass option available for BC residents. I want to say Vail and Beaver Creek have more restrictions than Breckenridge, which can get completely overrun. The UT Crew will definitely know how it works with PC.


Edit: I bought two Epic day passes in the fall that cost $51 a piece. They lumped the NH resorts with the Midwest ones (fitting ). Could buy one or two for your Kitty fix.

 

[jimk]

Not sure where to put these comments? I guess they would fall under pet peeves from a member of the unwashed masses.

1. I rode the Gad 2 chair on Thursday Feb 29 with a member of Snowbird's Seven Summits Club. He was miffed when I was initially unimpressed. When I asked for details he proudly described the numerous exclusive perks (unlimited skiing at Alta/Bird, unlimited line cutting including tram, fancy locker room and steam bath, valet parking, beverages/snacks, same privileges for one guest per day, etc). I suppose I was then impressed. Later I googled to find it's $30k+ per year with less than 100 members, and a wait list so long that it's closed indefinitely.

2. About a month ago on a busy, sunny Saturday I was in Mineral Basin at Snowbird in mid-morning. That is when you want to leave and ski the empty front side of the mtn. There was about a 20 minute lift line and growing. I was in the singles line when a lady skated past me in the Fast Track lane and yelled to her group of about six, "best $70 we ever spent." Of course, she meant $70 for each person on top of whatever pass they had and this allowed them to cut lines at all chair lifts.

Nothing wrong with either of these folks I suppose. Perhaps I'd do the same if I had money to burn and precious little free time. But for some reason they both made me throw-up a little in my mouth?

 

[raisingarizona]

Not sure where to put these comments? I guess they would fall under pet peeves from a member of the unwashed masses.

1. I rode the Gad 2 chair on Thursday Feb 29 with a member of Snowbird's Seven Summits Club. He was miffed when I was initially unimpressed. When I asked for details he proudly described the numerous exclusive perks (unlimited skiing at Alta/Bird, unlimited line cutting including tram, fancy locker room and steam bath, valet parking, beverages/snacks, same privileges for one guest per day, etc). I suppose I was then impressed. Later I googled to find it's $30k+ per year with less than 100 members, and a wait list so long that it's closed indefinitely.

2. About a month ago on a busy, sunny Saturday I was in Mineral Basin at Snowbird in mid-morning. That is when you want to leave and ski the empty front side of the mtn. There was about a 20 minute lift line and growing. I was in the singles line when a lady skated past me in the Fast Track lane and yelled to her group of about six, "best $70 we ever spent." Of course, she meant $70 for each person on top of whatever pass they had and this allowed them to cut lines at all chair lifts.

Nothing wrong with either of these folks I suppose. Perhaps I'd do the same if I had money to burn and precious little free time. But for some reason they both made me throw-up a little in my mouth?

Sharing chairs with randoms in Utah can be very exhausting.

 

[urungus]

I'm surprised it hasn't gone onto a premium tier yet. Seems like a candidate to get the Whistler/PC treatment.

Stowe is already on a premium tier. Same as Whistler/PC, only the full Epic Pass gets you unlimited access to Stowe with no blackouts.

 

[snoseek]

I’ve thought the same, hopefully it would mitigate Stowe’s crowds a bit. Just checked the Epic site but can’t see the pass options because they’re off sale. Are PC and Whistler on higher tiers though? Because I’m not hearing about lower crowds at those places.

I had resigned myself to go back to Wildcat next year but, after buying the Indy yesterday, I’m starting to have 2nd thoughts.

Dude wildcat has been perfectly OK this year. Attitash is better than ever. Just know it takes them a long time to get open. Once they do its been fine. Bar open has been open. Come back home.

 

[takeahike46er]

Speaking of 2nd thoughts, I kinda regretted adding Whistler to the list because I think they at least used to have a pass option available for BC residents.

Are you perhaps thinking of Edge Cards? They’re a very popular option for BC and WA residents that predates Vail’s takeover of Whistler. They come in 2, 5 and 10 day flavors—the latter two getting you unlimited skiing the first two weeks of the season when purchased early (used to be more bonus days pre-Vail). A 10-day Edge Card assuming 2 bonus days works out to approximately $45 USD per day, a great deal for a resort like WB.

It’s tough to tease out how much of an impact Epic had on crowding at WB versus other factors. The Vancouver metro area (similar to the Seattle metro just across the border) has grown substantially in the past 25 years, adding 1 million residents and now approaching 3 million total. Throw in increasingly volatile snow conditions at the local North Shore areas, Edge Cards predating Vail, and a culture where powder days are practically currency on social media, and I’m not sure how much we can blame the Epic Pass for the crowding at Whistler.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I'm surprised it hasn't gone onto a premium tier yet. Seems like a candidate to get the Whistler/PC treatment.

It should be given how crowded EPIC's making Stowe, but I suspect the issue with that is Vail Resorts knows it's one of their biggest East Coast EPIC buying hooks.

For instance, I would 100% buy an EPIC to ski Stowe, but I'm not buying an EPIC to ski Mount Snow & Hunter, etc... I suspect there are many people who think similarly.

 

[djd66]

This whole thread is kind of funny. 12 pages of complaining- and I still don’t understand how Altera sucks. Seems to be a lot of sucking for like 3 people complaining about lines and traffic at 1 or 2 of the Altera ski resorts,… and Utah is having an incredible snow year.

Is it just me?

 

[EPB]

It should be given how crowded EPIC's making Stowe, but I suspect the issue with that is Vail Resorts knows it's one of their biggest East Coast EPIC buying hooks.

For instance, I would 100% buy an EPIC to ski Stowe, but I'm not buying an EPIC to ski Mount Snow & Hunter, etc... I suspect there are many people who think similarly.

It's a conundrum, but I want to say my brother spent less than $600 for an eastern pass that included 10 days at Stowe. I think the local had that too (both had blackouts). The problem is that leaves maybe non-blackout weekends after new years before the masses pack it in for spring sports. Assuming half the weekends have sub-optimal conditions, and you're looking at 4-6 prime weekends per year for the unwashed masses to ruin the place.

 

[thetrailboss]

Not sure where to put these comments? I guess they would fall under pet peeves from a member of the unwashed masses.

1. I rode the Gad 2 chair on Thursday Feb 29 with a member of Snowbird's Seven Summits Club. He was miffed when I was initially unimpressed. When I asked for details he proudly described the numerous exclusive perks (unlimited skiing at Alta/Bird, unlimited line cutting including tram, fancy locker room and steam bath, valet parking, beverages/snacks, same privileges for one guest per day, etc). I suppose I was then impressed. Later I googled to find it's $30k+ per year with less than 100 members, and a wait list so long that it's closed indefinitely.

2. About a month ago on a busy, sunny Saturday I was in Mineral Basin at Snowbird in mid-morning. That is when you want to leave and ski the empty front side of the mtn. There was about a 20 minute lift line and growing. I was in the singles line when a lady skated past me in the Fast Track lane and yelled to her group of about six, "best $70 we ever spent." Of course, she meant $70 for each person on top of whatever pass they had and this allowed them to cut lines at all chair lifts.

Nothing wrong with either of these folks I suppose. Perhaps I'd do the same if I had money to burn and precious little free time. But for some reason they both made me throw-up a little in my mouth?

The Seven Summits folks are less than impressed with Fast Tracks. That line-cutting privilege was only for them before Fast Tracks became a thing. I'd heard a long time ago that membership was about $10-15k or so to start.

I honestly see very, very few people using the Fast Tracks lines. And if it were like Killington, folks would prefer to keep quiet so not to get heckled.

 

[Edd]

$30 fuckin K for Seven Summits

 

[kingslug]

200k plus 10 k a year for windham.....

 

[thetrailboss]

Alterra ain't the only one...

Powder Mountain replaces season pass limit with price increases

Powder Mountain ski resort released season tickets Wednesday, removing many discount groups, including free passes for seniors 75 and up, while increasing prices.

www.ksl.com

Follow up. No more cap on sales. Paid parking and dynamic pricing are coming! Oh joy! But first, let's screw the kids and senior citizens first:

Seniors 75 and older used to ski for free. Their pass will now cost $1,049. Children ages 7-17 enrolled in the Weber or Cache County school system had been able to ski the entire season for $109. Those passes will now cost $199 for kids ages 7-12 when paired with an adult pass and $699 without an adult. Meanwhile, a pass for teens 13-17 will be $1,049 — an increase of 862%.

And fuck the military and vets as well:

Brandon Hegoas, 47, of Syracuse, said the price of his midweek military pass will double. Though he said he has the income to weather the change, Hegoas, who served 21 years in the Air Force, said he won’t.

Powder Mountain dropped the cap on its season passes. People aren’t happy.

Powder Mountain will no longer limit the number of season passes it sells, the resort announced this week. Some people had been on the waitlist since 2020. Rather than excitement, though, the resort has faced harsh backlash.

www.sltrib.com

 

[thetrailboss]

Oh boy, this did not go over well.......