The ALTERRA SUCKS Thread

[thebigo]

Objectively, Vail has spent way more $$ on infrastructure upgrades to their Northeast properties over say the last 5yrs than Peak did.

They have spent way more than Peak in Vermont. As for NH, investment has been Attitash only. Last year that Peak operated wildcat they opened October 27 and closed April 28, a six month season. Vail has been barely able to break four months; Peak always opened and closed top to bottom.

There is also the miserable employee rate, last thing I ever want to deal with on a ski day is miserable employees. Approximate miserable employee rate by ownership group:

Vail NH: 75%
Vail VT: 25%
Alterra, Powdr and Boyne: 5%
Well run independents (Pats, Ragged, Gunstock, etc.): <1%

 

[2Planker]

They have spent way more than Peak in Vermont. As for NH, investment has been Attitash only. Last year that Peak operated wildcat they opened October 27 and closed April 28, a six month season. Vail has been barely able to break four months; Peak always opened and closed top to bottom.

There is also the miserable employee rate, last thing I ever want to deal with on a ski day is miserable employees. Approximate miserable employee rate by ownership group:

Vail NH: 75%
Vail VT: 25%
Alterra, Powdr and Boyne: 5%
Well run independents (Pats, Ragged, Gunstock, etc.): <1%

We got married at the top of wildcat on May 1 2015 and they were still open.
Bonus was, We didn’t have to pay to rent the lift to get people up.
Even the bagpiper skied down.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Anybody else read it that way?

I did originally

 

[cdskier]

That season we had major crowding issues. I also have it on good authority that the total number of IKON passholders in the Salt Lake Valley outnumber what all four ski resorts used to have in passholders combined.

Serious question here...where did those people ski prior to Ikon if they didn't have a pass to any of the 4 ski resorts that Ikon now provides access to in the Salt Lake area?

 

[ss20]

Serious question here...where did those people ski prior to Ikon if they didn't have a pass to any of the 4 ski resorts that Ikon now provides access to in the Salt Lake area?

They bought reasonably priced day tickets and skied 2-5 days a season. With Ikon a lot of people in that demographic are skiing more. That's where the increase comes from. Not more skiers, more ski days.

 

[cdskier]

They bought reasonably priced day tickets and skied 2-5 days a season. With Ikon a lot of people in that demographic are skiing more. That's where the increase comes from. Not more skiers, more ski days.

And some people consider people skiing more (at an affordable price in the grand scheme of things) a bad thing why?

 

[urungus]

They have spent way more than Peak in Vermont. As for NH, investment has been Attitash only.

What capital improvements did Peak make in their NH properties ?

Peak owned Wildcat from 2010-2019, zero new lifts
Peak owned Attitash from 2007-2019, zero new lifts
Peak owned Crotched from 2003-2019, installed the Valley Quad and Park Triple for 2003-2004, Rocket for 2012-13
Peak never owned Sunapee

Over a much longer time period, Peak made capital improvements to only one NH resort, a summit lift and two shorter lifts, same as Vail. And Mountaineer is twice the vertical of Rocket.

 

[skiur]

And some people consider people skiing more (at an affordable price in the grand scheme of things) a bad thing why?

It's a great thing as long as they do it on the days I'm not skiing!

 

[joshua segal]

Maybe be so with Alterra but not Vail. (IMO)

On what do you base that statement?

 

[joshua segal]

What capital improvements did Peak make in their NH properties ?

Peak owned Wildcat from 2010-2019, zero new lifts
Peak owned Attitash from 2007-2019, zero new lifts
Peak owned Crotched from 2003-2019, installed the Valley Quad and Park Triple for 2003-2004, Rocket for 2012-13
Peak never owned Sunapee

Over a much longer time period, Peak made capital improvements to only one NH resort, a summit lift and two shorter lifts, same as Vail. And Mountaineer is twice the vertical of Rocket.

Peak put heavy emphasis on snowmaking - rather than lifts.
- New snowmaking system at Wildcat
- Fan guns at Attitash and Crotched

 

[ss20]

And some people consider people skiing more (at an affordable price in the grand scheme of things) a bad thing why?

I love it as long as the mountain capacity isn't overwhelmed.

Whenever I teach a rare beginner lesson these days I always drop that the rope tow and our beginner chairlift are completely free. And Sunnyside is $25 3pm-4:30pm. Fantastic deals.

 

[thetrailboss]

They have spent way more than Peak in Vermont. As for NH, investment has been Attitash only. Last year that Peak operated wildcat they opened October 27 and closed April 28, a six month season. Vail has been barely able to break four months; Peak always opened and closed top to bottom.

There is also the miserable employee rate, last thing I ever want to deal with on a ski day is miserable employees. Approximate miserable employee rate by ownership group:

Vail NH: 75%
Vail VT: 25%
Alterra, Powdr and Boyne: 5%
Well run independents (Pats, Ragged, Gunstock, etc.): <1%

I’d say that the POWDR misery index is higher. At least at Snowbird. People rarely work more than one season there

 

[thetrailboss]

Jesus. Yup I will agree. I am an idiot. Jet lag got me all fuck up.
Trail Boss I am sorry.

I appreciate it. No worries. You had me wondering if I was losing my mind.

In all seriousness, I do wish Sugarbush the best. I was a passholder at Sugabrush for nearly a decade. I consider it my second home on the east coast next to Burke. Nothing would make me happier than seeing it get the TLC it needs. I just am seeing Alterra doing other things that I would not do if it were my money.

 

[thetrailboss]

Serious question here...where did those people ski prior to Ikon if they didn't have a pass to any of the 4 ski resorts that Ikon now provides access to in the Salt Lake area?

They bought reasonably priced day tickets and skied 2-5 days a season. With Ikon a lot of people in that demographic are skiing more. That's where the increase comes from. Not more skiers, more ski days.

This.

Additionally, yes, the population has grown. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if it as only EPIC and no IKON out here.

 

[BenedictGomez]

SLC has gained almost 500k in population over the timeframe Benedict references, which is over 50% overall growth in 30 years. I'm sure hardly any of them ski....

The crowding referenced is not over 30 years, it's literally started since IKON. This from the people who lived & skied there during that timeframe with years of experience. It's pretty obvious really.

If IKON didnt exist, people would be spread out over numerous resorts, but because IKON does exist, they're all hammering Solitude, which is the only unlimited option on the IKON pass. It's not complicated.

 

[Great Bear]

And some people consider people skiing more (at an affordable price in the grand scheme of things) a bad thing why?

It isn't a bad thing - until the number of skiers exceeds the infrastructure capacity. Which seems to be happening with some regularity.

And, as mentioned - for those of us whose home mountain is on Ikon but not unlimited on Ikon the increased crowding is a negative, but we don't get the other Ikon benefits.

 

[AdironRider]

The crowding referenced is not over 30 years, it's literally started since IKON. This from the people who lived & skied there during that timeframe with years of experience. It's pretty obvious really.

If IKON didnt exist, people would be spread out over numerous resorts, but because IKON does exist, they're all hammering Solitude, which is the only unlimited option on the IKON pass. It's not complicated.

Yeah sure bud, you know what it was like having just moved there a few months ago. Bet you consider yourself a local.

It is a myriad of factors. Millennials are more outdoor oriented than prior generations. Guys like you an TB move to SLC for the ease of access. Covid basically ruined bus shuttles participation for a generation. And yes, pass products driving traffic. You’ll figure this out once you actually spend more than a few months somewhere and see actual changes for yourself. Not read a ski forum and think you know everything. Like it or not, an additional 500k people is going to drive significantly more traffic to those areas than any pass product though.

I’ve hammered this point elsewhere, but you cannot objectively argue increased participation is bad for the industry. But the old curmudgeons on here that want all the capex and operations spending but no crowds to support it sure do.

 

[jaytrem]

Using the an antonym finder, here are some potential new names if they decide to change from Solitude...

Noun
▲
Opposite of the state or situation of being alone
company

companionship

togetherness

companions

presence

people

fellowship

visitors

camaraderie

community

friendship

guests

comradery

comradeship

amity

visitants

closeness

intimacy

 

[drjeff]

It isn't a bad thing - until the number of skiers exceeds the infrastructure capacity. Which seems to be happening with some regularity.

And, as mentioned - for those of us whose home mountain is on Ikon but not unlimited on Ikon the increased crowding is a negative, but we don't get the other Ikon benefits.

The truth of the matter, is that the majority of ski areas operate under their capacity probably 95% of their operatung days, and many may never reach their full operating capacity any day of the season. And public perception of what full capacity is verses what the industry and local fire code standards define it as are likely 2 different things

Now if you want to talk core base area lift lines that once you get away from the base area or certain other bottle neck areas you can find rather uncrowded terrain, that's a separate issue, since does it realistically makes any economic sense to say spend another 10? 20? 30? million on a few redundant lifts in certain areas of a mountain that truly may only be needed a minimal amount of hours per year? Verses potentially spending that capital on other projects around the resort that will be used more throughout the season

If people want a resort to keep investing in new infrastructure (lifts, snowmaking, base area/on mountain facilities, etc) to keep a resort operating as smoothly as possible, then the reality is that means that a healthy volume of folks using the resort, 7 days a week, during the season will need to happen, or the cost of a pass/day ticket will have to increase many times over. It's a bit of a double edged sword for sure

 

[cdskier]

It isn't a bad thing - until the number of skiers exceeds the infrastructure capacity. Which seems to be happening with some regularity.

And, as mentioned - for those of us whose home mountain is on Ikon but not unlimited on Ikon the increased crowding is a negative, but we don't get the other Ikon benefits.

Is infrastructure capacity really being exceeded though? Or is like DrJeff said it more that people's perception of capacity is different from the reality of actual capacity. I really haven't heard anyone say every lift at K has long waits. Conversely every time I hear someone talk about K's lifts being crowded someone else chimes in that there are plenty of other lifts at K that have short lines.

As for crowding at partner resorts, sorry, that's on the partner's management. K could require reservations for Ikon. It is their choice not to... So apparently management either just doesn't believe they're over capacity...or just doesn't care and simply wants the revenue. Either way that's on K, not Ikon/Alterra.