The ALTERRA SUCKS Thread

[letitsnow1]

Is infrastructure capacity really being exceeded though? Or is like DrJeff said it more that people's perception of capacity is different from the reality of actual capacity. I really haven't heard anyone say every lift at K has long waits. Conversely every time I hear someone talk about K's lifts being crowded someone else chimes in that there are plenty of other lifts at K that have short lines.

As for crowding at partner resorts, sorry, that's on the partner's management. K could require reservations for Ikon. It is their choice not to... So apparently management either just doesn't believe they're over capacity...or just doesn't care and simply wants the revenue. Either way that's on K, not Ikon/Alterra.

K makes money when its crowded they don't want to limit the crowds. I find the trails to become overcrowded and dangerous before the lift lines get long.

But on the days that parking is down to the lookout and on rt 4 by skyeship the bear lot is half empty. K is trying to get people to park at bear by opening a lift there at 7:30 on Saturday but the lot rarely gets more than half full.

I almost always park at bear and it's never full but it's closer to full than 1/2 full on most weekends

 

[boston_e]

K makes money when its crowded they don't want to limit the crowds. I find the trails to become overcrowded and dangerous before the lift lines get long.

I almost always park at bear and it's never full but it's closer to full than 1/2 full on most weekends

Agree about trail crowding. Experienced K skiers can usually escape the madness- if you are ok skiing the harder trails.

Also agree on bear - that’s my go to parking. And while I have not seen people starting to have to park down the bear mountain road - the lot is generally more or less full on a Saturday…. But that does not help all of the people who are doing lessons / kids programs / rentals etc.

 

[jimk]

The crowding referenced is not over 30 years, it's literally started since IKON. This from the people who lived & skied there during that timeframe with years of experience. It's pretty obvious really.

If IKON didnt exist, people would be spread out over numerous resorts, but because IKON does exist, they're all hammering Solitude, which is the only unlimited option on the IKON pass. It's not complicated.

I ski with someone who knows Solitude very well and he swears this year it's the least crowded of the four LCC/BCC resorts, and perhaps because of the new parking restrictions.

 

[4aprice]

My local bump went on Ikon this season. I can't say I've noticed much difference. The parking lots on weekend days were full before Ikon. The mountain could use an infusion of cash for improved infrastructure so it may not be a bad move.

As some have said it's a double edge sword of quaintness and tradition v. more use and improvement.

 

[BodeMiller1]

That change happened well before Peak ownership.

I know

 

[thetrailboss]

I ski with someone who knows Solitude very well and he swears this year it's the least crowded of the four LCC/BCC resorts, and perhaps because of the new parking restrictions

The reservations have indeed helped. I think the biggest factor though has been that the Town of Brighton now requires reservations for those parking on the side of SR-190. Before this season, folks would park on the side of SR-190 to avoid paying to park. The result was that these cars restricted traffic and at the end of the day would stop or slow down traffic coming from Brighton to get out. I've driven up in the afternoons and seen a fair number of cars ticketed--for either not having a reservation or parking in the lane of travel.

The other factor in the equation is that the resorts are having a good snow year, so folks are "using their days" at other places whereas if the season sucked then they would be doing Solitude since it is unlimited.

But Solitude from pre-IKON to now is definitely night and day in terms of crowds.

 

[oldfartrider]

I agree with KG. Ikon ruined the Utah canyon roads. I have little desire to go there now

 

[Edd]

But Solitude from pre-IKON to now is definitely night and day in terms of crowds.

I agree with KG. Ikon ruined the Utah canyon roads. I have little desire to go there now

This is hard to deny for Solitude. I’d been there pre-Ikon and the year after they joined and the difference was wild. Both trips non-holiday weekdays.

 

[kingslug]

What sux more is the price to stay up at alta/bird...simply too expensive...but the only real way to get the most of the place.

 

[thetrailboss]

What sux more is the price to stay up at alta/bird...simply too expensive...but the only real way to get the most of the place.

Yes, the costs are crazy.

 

[Former Sunday Rivah Rat]

Using the an antonym finder, here are some potential new names if they decide to change from Solitude...

Noun
▲
Opposite of the state or situation of being alone

I thought they call it Multitude now.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Yeah sure bud, you know what it was like having just moved there a few months ago. Bet you consider yourself a local.

It is a myriad of factors. Millennials are more outdoor oriented than prior generations. Guys like you an TB move to SLC for the ease of access. Covid basically ruined bus shuttles participation for a generation. And yes, pass products driving traffic. You’ll figure this out once you actually spend more than a few months somewhere and see actual changes for yourself. Not read a ski forum and think you know everything. Like it or not, an additional 500k people is going to drive significantly more traffic to those areas than any pass product though.

It has absolutely nothing to do with me, it's the scores of people who've skied at Solitude for literally years, effectively all saying precisely the same thing, that IKON is leading to maddening crowds.

As for your, "500k more people", I wasn't sure WTH you were talking about so I had to look it up, as while everyone knows Utah's one of the fastest growing states, I was 100% sure 500k people haven't moved here in just the 5 years since IKON, and I was correct - via census data to arrive at 500k more people in Utah you need to go back twice that long, at 10 or 11 years, LONG before IKON was ever a twinkle in a hedge fund manager's eye.

The reality is the growth in absolute numbers in 5 years is about 1/2 what you're claiming, or a bit less than 250k people, not all of whom ski, and not all of whom live anywhere near Solitude. The thousands of people moving to Southern Utah, for instance, are not driving 8 hours roundtrip 3 times per week to ski Solitude.

TL/DR: Yes, IKON is directly leading to way more crowds at Solitude than skied there just 5 years ago.

 

[doublediamond]

I would say that if people are having to park down by the lookout or illegally park on route, four down by sky ship that yes, as a minimum parking capacity infrastructure is being exceeded… Even if that is only happened on a small handful of days each year.

I would also think that if crowding is at a point where our guests are starting to feel unsafe (even if people like you and I know where to go to escape it) then yes, one could argue that capacity is being exceeded.

To Jeff’s point I would agree that probably technical fire code capacity, etc. versus the capacity as far as providing a quality guest experience are two different things… But I would argue the quality guest experience is the more important one, and will be reached before things like fire code, etc.

With respect to parking… Have there been attendants at all lots appropriately parking people?

I was up at K during the week of the PSIA invasion. Driving past you could see the catastrophe that became of Snowshed lot daily as the PSIA folk were showing up prior to the parking attendants with cars parked haphazardly across the lower lot. The attendants were desperately trying to fit a few more cars in here or there based on the disaster of the self-parking aisles.

 

[4aprice]

I know its just because of when I go. (2nd half of March every year) but I've never seen Solitude busy. 2 days I was there last year no different. Caught Brighton on a pretty busy one though that same week (may have snowing though)

 

[BenedictGomez]

I hate Ikon just as much as the next guy, exclusively due to the crowding it brings

last year literally everyone had banner years, the only variance was Ikon.

Upgrading the Casper lift and adding Teton did not drive hundreds of thousands of people to show up here, mountain collective and Ikon have.

Retail and F&B are down revenue wise despite the increase in visits. The juice is not worth the squeeze ......

Call it entitlement, but when you go from being the premier resort in the country to taking anyone and their mother who shows up is going to change the locals opinion. We had a great system for lift mazes, now its just a bunch of ikoners cutting lines. This never happened before.

We are also in a major housing crunch and there is no staff to handle this increase in people. The product has suffered as a result. No one likes this.

New phone, who dis?

 

[AdironRider]

It has absolutely nothing to do with me, it's the scores of people who've skied at Solitude for literally years, effectively all saying precisely the same thing, that IKON is leading to maddening crowds.

As for your, "500k more people", I wasn't sure WTH you were talking about so I had to look it up, as while everyone knows Utah's one of the fastest growing states, I was 100% sure 500k people haven't moved here in just the 5 years since IKON, and I was correct - via census data to arrive at 500k more people in Utah you need to go back twice that long, at 10 or 11 years, LONG before IKON was ever a twinkle in a hedge fund manager's eye.

The reality is the growth in absolute numbers in 5 years is about 1/2 what you're claiming, or a bit less than 250k people, not all of whom ski, and not all of whom live anywhere near Solitude. The thousands of people moving to Southern Utah, for instance, are not driving 8 hours roundtrip 3 times per week to ski Solitude.

TL/DR: Yes, IKON is directly leading to way more crowds at Solitude than skied there just 5 years ago.

View attachment 61269

Hey local guy, you claimed a 29 year timeframe originally with your tale of the guy from Solitude that switched to Epic.

Everyone has a bad day, but even for you, between this and the Jay thread your ignorance really shined yesterday. Something tells me you will keep doubling down though.

 

[AdironRider]

I am a moron

Hey you said it.

 

[boston_e]

With respect to parking… Have there been attendants at all lots appropriately parking people?

I was up at K during the week of the PSIA invasion. Driving past you could see the catastrophe that became of Snowshed lot daily as the PSIA folk were showing up prior to the parking attendants with cars parked haphazardly across the lower lot. The attendants were desperately trying to fit a few more cars in here or there based on the disaster of the self-parking aisles.

I can’t speak to every parking lot on every day but my observation is that as a general rule the K parking attendants do a pretty good job.

 

[deadheadskier]

Haha ok fair. I do kind of chuckle at calling that an improvement, they really just patched together a system that broke but it was indeed capital spending.

I think the point stands though that Peak wasn't exactly pouring money into the place.

Kinda. It was an over $2M investment, which is quite significant for an area that probably doesn't do $10M in revenue a year. They replaced all the pipe on the three major snowmaking routes off the summit (Polecat, Lynx, Catapult ) plus Bobcat and Wild Kitten. Did Cheetah the following season. They rebuilt the pump house and added a ton of high efficiency tower guns. It was a major rehaul really and not "patching" what they had together. The result was a system light years better than what they ever had before.

My biggest gripe with Vail is they have been far less aggressive early season with snowmaking at Wildcat and Attitash than Peak was. Not that Peak was to be confused with Boyne or other notable snowmaking powerhouses. That and cutting nearly a month overall from Wildcat's season had me looking for something better and more reliable for my family.

Is what it is. I'm excited to ski Cat and Attitash next week for the first time in three years. They got a little bit of my money again. But overall I'm pleased with my decision to switch from Epic to a Gunstock plus Indy combination.

As for the subject at hand, it's interesting how Alterra / iKon is fine some places and not others. I don't hear any complaints from the Maine folks. In fact, the iKon and tiered structure of the Boyne products have made holiday weekends less crowded than regular weekends from what I've heard.

 

[AdironRider]

I think the guns were definitely an upgrade. Replacing pipe though is just maintaining status quo and fixing broken stuff. Pipe is pipe and they had it before, it broke, and they replaced it. Its not like they added snowmaking to a trail that didn't have it before.

I have certainly taken a contrarian (relative to most here) stance on this overall recently, because ultimately these two passes have been an overall boon for the industry. The ski industry, unlike most other outdoor pursuits post-covid, has remained relatively strong. Take a look at the bike industry, which is hemorrhaging cash and laying off employees left and right. The bike market is in utter free fall. You aren't seeing that with skiing, despite similar high costs of entry.

That is due in large part to these passes as you get a lot more skiing for the same cost, both to the mountain and to the consumer. They are good value despite their cost. From a financial perspective that is a massive win. You are seeing that with, for example, a record amount of lift installs industry wide the past couple years.

Now of course there are some effects to that, like increased visitation on pow days, or resources being spread across multiple mountains where before they operated as distinct separate entities, even under the same ownership umbrella, but overall I think the passes have been a positive for the sustainability of the industry, which was a big worry pre-Ikon/Epic talked at length about here.