The Economics of Big Ski Resorts

[drjeff]

I guess that includes me given Biology is one of the subjects I have a degree in.

Always amazes me what people on teh internetz assume.

FYI, believing that modern environmentalism has "jumped the shark" and also caring for the environment at the same time, are not mutually exclusive concepts.

I tend to agree that there are many people ON BOTH SIDES of the environmental issue (from the do whatever you want crowd, to the don't touch anything crowd) that don't really get what they're talking about or why they're talking about it. I think that science has shown in many ways that through proper use and management of the land that we as "citizens of the earth" can actually help mother nature (and not by just doing nothing) almost as easily as we can harm mother nature.

The problem all too often is that rather than taking the time to find out BOTH sides of the story, one very often latches onto the side of the story that has the greatest EMOTIONAL connection to them. And it's that emotional component that can very well blind one from the FACTUAL component of the total picture, and that creates problems

 

[Black Phantom]

How long did it take for Loon to open their new area? 20 years?

 

[St. Bear]

How long did it take for Loon to open their new area? 20 years?

And it took almost that long for Cannon to incorporate Mittersill, which was already cut and developed.

 

[HowieT2]

I agree with you, but the former certainly play their part as well.

Even with existing areas that want to create the slightest of expansions, often some eco nut shows up and blocks them (and this is happening on both coasts, NY, UT, CO etc..).

that may be so in some cases, but I think it's more of an urban myth than reality. Successful challenges to development are usually rooted in widespread opposition among stakeholders.

let me give you an example of which I have personal knowledge. I live in westchester county, ny. My property sits on a 20 acre lake surrounded by woodland. The lake was created in the 1880's by the railroad to supply water for steam locomotives by building an earthen dam. In the 1950's coned purchased the property and ran transmission lines over it. The community has used the lake for fishing, kayaking and in good winters, for ice hockey and skating for over a hundred years. Obviously there is also a large wildlife population dependent on it.

Some years ago, there was upstate dam that was in danger of collapsing. as a result of the crisis, new regulations were enacted requiring dam owners to upgrade and maintain their dams. Coned decided they had no need for the dam and proposed demolishing it and draining the lake. In response, we rallied community opposition and used environmental regulations to prod coned to sell the property to our town, upgrade the dam and create a new park.

My point is, the rules and regulations exist to give people and communities a fighting chance against powerful interests. without these regulations, we never would have had a chance fighting a behemoth like coned despite the fact that what they wanted to do made no sense for a variety of reasons.

another famous example was the westway project which was a proposal to build a huge highway on the west side of manhattan. it was technically derailed because of a lawsuit over some snail or something, but it really died because of community opposition.

 

[abc]

Most ski areas are very inefficient at taking in customer business and distributing it across the mountain. A typical problem is that one or two key lifts are perpetually crowded, while many others at the same resort have no line. If you give someone 10 or 20 years' notice of 30 percent more business, there are usually ways of reconfiguring the lodge and lift layout, to distribute people more efficiently over the same terrain.

It's not just the lift line. How about the increased number of snowboarder sitting across the top of the slope?

To give one local example, ten years ago Hunter Mountain built a whole new "learning center" with a separate rental area. More recently, they installed a 6-pack on the main face and transferred the high-speed lift it replaced over to the west side. Without adding a single new trail, they were able to significantly expand the number of guests they are able to handle.

No, they didn't "handle more guest". They merely dump more guest on the same number of runs, making an already crowded mountain more extremely crowded!

It's like the traffic into Manhattan in the morning. Sure you can switch an outbound lane to an inbound lane so more cars can get into the city. But as soon as they're off the bridge/tunnel, the surface streets can't handle the additional traffic and it jams again!

The issue isn't the number of resorts, it's the distribution of them geographically. Where the population centers are, there're not enough resorts. But in the middle of nowhere, there're plenty of capacity. Except if there's no good access (airport), it'll be underutilized.

 

[millerm277]

No, they didn't "handle more guest". They merely dump more guest on the same number of runs, making an already crowded mountain more extremely crowded!

Actually, they do, by reworking the setup. The learning center gets beginners out of the main lodge and moves rentals out of there as well. That also gets low-level people to spend more of their day at Hunter One, which has plenty of trail capacity for people.

Putting in the B Quad a number of years ago and making Park Ave/Lower Broadway the parks and Madison Ave the racing run, means that all of the park rats and racers stay off the main mountain in their own little isolated area.

The West Side HSQ combined with greatly increased snowmaking on that side of the mountain coming soon, will basically be like adding new trails, since they historically haven't been open that much. You'll also notice that they now always open Upper 42nd St to pull crowds off of Hellgate, and that sort of thing.

 

[ScottySkis]

Actually, they do, by reworking the setup. The learning center gets beginners out of the main lodge and moves rentals out of there as well. That also gets low-level people to spend more of their day at Hunter One, which has plenty of trail capacity for people.

Putting in the B Quad a number of years ago and making Park Ave/Lower Broadway the parks and Madison Ave the racing run, means that all of the park rats and racers stay off the main mountain in their own little isolated area.

The West Side HSQ combined with greatly increased snowmaking on that side of the mountain coming soon, will basically be like adding new trails, since they historically haven't been open that much. You'll also notice that they now always open Upper 42nd St to pull crowds off of Hellgate, and that sort of thing.

That would be great foe Hunter mtn and the people who play their.

 

[Edd]

Haven't read the whole thread but I've heard this joke from someone who works in the ski industry:

Q: How do you become a millionare owning a ski resort?

A: Start out as a billionare.

I'm here all week! Please try the veal!

 

[abc]

The West Side HSQ combined with greatly increased snowmaking on that side of the mountain coming soon, will basically be like adding new trails, since they historically haven't been open that much. You'll also notice that they now always open Upper 42nd St to pull crowds off of Hellgate, and that sort of thing.

The times I was there, the west side was never crowded. The lift line was like 30 second! It's just the make up of skier skill level. In the mean time, Belt Parkway was like Time Square! The more uphill capacity they put in, the more crowded it gets.

Expanding snowmaking to cover more advanced trail does help (to people on this forum), especially on a low snow year like this one. But it's not exactly "expanding the mountain" for the average joe skier.

 

[goldsbar]

When I think of the Catskills, I can't imagine another area with or without regulations. Hunter and Windham (so I hear) draw big crowds. Belleayre only in a good year if they give away free tickets. Plattekill hardly ever. This year Belleayre has had zero lines and my one time at Hunter around Xmas was empty for that time of year. Sure, this year is abnormal but you need a dedicated base to get through years like this. Remember Bobcat? Probably not. It's sort of by Pkill/Belleayre. Opened for a bit a few years ago but no go in the long run. Too bad as Belleayre could expand to the vertical of Hunter and there's one mountain that's been discussed in these boards that would likely be a better ski area than any of the existing ones.

Southern VT maybe but you'd need a lot of money to build an instant resort with serious snowmaking. I've never been to Magic but it sounds like they're always struggling economically. Northern VT - nope. Sugarbush is relatively empty. MRG gets crowded but that's due to the lift.

 

[thetrailboss]

Haven't read the whole thread but I've heard this joke from someone who works in the ski industry:

Q: How do you become a millionare owning a ski resort?

A: Start out as a billionare.

I'm here all week! Please try the veal!

Sad but true.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Off the top of my head 3 major resorts have been built/opened in the last 10 years in NA. Tamarack in Idaho, opened about 5 years ago, went belly up, trying to reorganize and re-open. Revelstoke in Canada, opened a couple of years ago, hoping to grow to over 6000 vertival feet and Moonlight Basin in Montana, next to Big Sky.

 

[oakapple]

Too bad as Belleayre could expand to the vertical of Hunter and there's one mountain that's been discussed in these boards that would likely be a better ski area than any of the existing ones.

Belleayre has plans on the books to absorb the currently-defunct Highmount ski area adjoining it, which will add quite a bit of terrain. There is a partner in the private sector who would be building a hotel & spa there. I know: like any such plan, until it happens you have to assume it might not.

 

[oakapple]

The West Side HSQ combined with greatly increased snowmaking on that side of the mountain coming soon, will basically be like adding new trails, since they historically haven't been open that much. You'll also notice that they now always open Upper 42nd St to pull crowds off of Hellgate, and that sort of thing.

They also have Upper Hunter One as a significantly under-used resource. I think I've been there half-a-dozen times, and found it open only once.

Where Hunter suffers is that they need another green or blue cruiser that comes down from the summit. The only run at Hunter that I find really intolerably crowded is Belt Parkway. It's the only blue route that reaches the top, so everyone who can't ski black is forced onto that one trail.

 

[Black Phantom]

Silverton