The "Sugarbush Thread"

[1dog]

Amen

And he has partners who have a say too - and frankly its been a great ride, and the place and regulars have benefited - so has the entire MRV.

Lets speculate some more. . . . if you had a place you loved, but your not 50 and someone offers you 3x/5x what you paid or what it's worth. You do whats best for you and your family.

Its a business - and if he is able, he'll have covenants to ensure similar operation to protect the experience. If not, we've have 18 years of care.

snow will still fly - and hey, change happens.

 

[BlueBirdayz]

Hope this is not a cycle-ASC buys from individual owners (hope we survive, almost don’t) — individuals buy — Alterra buys — ?

 

[1dog]

Hope this is not a cycle-ASC buys from individual owners (hope we survive, almost don’t) — individuals buy — Alterra buys — ?

Right - but it takes so much capital, and the liability of operations on one area - the economies of scale - legal and environmental regulations make it near impossible to operate with a margin. Real estate too - limits the market when there are no more affordable options -

Guess if your Leon Hess - and you need a loss on a small part of your portfolio to balance taxable gains in other areas - you can spend like he did at Snowbasin - return or no return. He at least got the Olympics there.

Just remember this - large companies come and go ( how many Dow components from 1930 are still there today?) but government grows and grows. . . .

 

[Hawk]

Look, I was just struck by this news and wanted to know. I have no idea if he is even considering selling. But...Considering that Win has always been really proud that Sugarbush is one of the few remaining resorts that are privately and individually owned, I doubt that Alterra would be the obvious choice. Just saying that shows a complete misunderstanding of what Sugarbush had been all about for the last 18 years. It would really surprise me if he just dumped off the resort to some big ski operation in a cash grab. He does not seem to be that type of person to me.
I have really enjoyed the ride over the last 18 years. He has done some great things. I know I have done my share of complaining but it was always around the snow making. I have finally realized it has never been about that like other resorts. I am good with it now. The rest has been excellent in my opinion.

 

[TheArchitect]

Well, I said I imagine it would be to Alterra but I didn't mean to imply it's the obvious choice. Given how Vail and Alterra have been buying up mountains I'm sure they'd be interested in buying, even if Win wasn't interested in selling to a big operation. I don't follow the business side closely enough to know who other perspective buyers could be, if it's even up for sale.

It's all speculation anyway while we wait for the snow to fall...

 

[slatham]

Look, I was just struck by this news and wanted to know. I have no idea if he is even considering selling. But...Considering that Win has always been really proud that Sugarbush is one of the few remaining resorts that are privately and individually owned, I doubt that Alterra would be the obvious choice. Just saying that shows a complete misunderstanding of what Sugarbush had been all about for the last 18 years. It would really surprise me if he just dumped off the resort to some big ski operation in a cash grab. He does not seem to be that type of person to me.
I have really enjoyed the ride over the last 18 years. He has done some great things. I know I have done my share of complaining but it was always around the snow making. I have finally realized it has never been about that like other resorts. I am good with it now. The rest has been excellent in my opinion.

I agree. Too much personal and family history and connection to pass the Sugarbush legacy along to a yet another ski area conglomerate. Perhaps there is someone as passionate and dedicated to an independent Sugarbush who is part of Summit Ventures? Or is brought in? Or maybe Win just wants to step back and not be THE man anymore (aka Chairman, not President?) but still maintains ownership? Rank speculation. But a sell out? I don't see it.

 

[machski]

While Alterra is a big ski resort conglomerate, they do business quite differently inside their company than Vail does. There is a lot of Independence in managing each resort or group of resorts (All the Aspen resorts are part of Alterra but they are not unlimited days on any Ikon as an example) that Vail does not do itself. Of Win were to sell to one of the big groups, I would think Alterra would fit the idea of Sugarbush as a unique, singular product within a mix better than any other. It is conceivable that Alterra might even keep it limited days on the Ikon were they to buy it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[Hawk]

While Alterra is a big ski resort conglomerate, they do business quite differently inside their company than Vail does. There is a lot of Independence in managing each resort or group of resorts (All the Aspen resorts are part of Alterra but they are not unlimited days on any Ikon as an example) that Vail does not do itself. Of Win were to sell to one of the big groups, I would think Alterra would fit the idea of Sugarbush as a unique, singular product within a mix better than any other. It is conceivable that Alterra might even keep it limited days on the Ikon were they to buy it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app

Mach, they all suck. Don't try to put lipstick on a pig around here. I basically left SR because the big company ruined what was a perfect place for years. And from what I see Boyne is not much better. We have a special place here at Sugarbush. So much so we have never look back. No thanks.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Maybe the prices for tickets and meals will become more reasonable. Probably not, the only major difference I've noticed under current ownership are price hikes. In the 80s and 90s Sugarbush certainly had a more "top tier" image as a major destination resort with ultimate eastern skiing. I guess that role is now filled exclusively by western resorts and perhaps Stowe.

But as a mountain that currently sells walk-up weekend tickets at around $120, I'm OK with a change in ownership if that's the case. Obscene.

 

[Hawk]

They are not $120 ever. Not if you go on line and buy them. And I guess you would say the same thing about Killington, Stowe, Jay and any other ski major ski area. they are all close to that price now.

 

[bdfreetuna]

They are not $120 ever. Not if you go on line and buy them. And I guess you would say the same thing about Killington, Stowe, Jay and any other ski major ski area. they are all close to that price now.

Well they are $120 if you walk up on a weekend and over $100 weekdays, maybe more or a couple $ less, but it's close either way.

I would say the same about Killington and Stowe. Okemo is right up there too now. Jay Peak is about $30 cheaper which IMO is a fair price to charge especially considering how others have broken the triple digit barrier.

Sugarbush, Killington and Jay I use 50% off passes and have for years. Stowe I use Ski VT passes.

Sometimes the topic comes up of "underserved populations" and their "access to the sport of skiing". Guess what, these are the same folks who simply drive up to a ski area and pay full price because they haven't been initiated into the art of getting deals for the season, as many of us do. I'm OK paying $60 to ski Sugarbush but the idea that some poor sap and his girlfriend just paid $120 each, and they took a few beginner runs before calling it quits... not a good situation!

Seems to me Eastern skiers should all rally around the concept of keeping tickets in the double digits. Or do we need more Hermitage Clubs?

edit: Yeah Jay Peak is $89 walk up rate this year. Up from $78 last I checked. So $30 cheaper than the Stowe/Sugar/Killington roughly.

 

[machski]

Mach, they all suck. Don't try to put lipstick on a pig around here. I basically left SR because the big company ruined what was a perfect place for years. And from what I see Boyne is not much better. We have a special place here at Sugarbush. So much so we have never look back. No thanks.

Hawk, I'm not advocating Alterra buy it. I like what I've skied at SB under Win. But IF Win were to sell, Alterra would IMHO be the most likely to keep SB as close to as it is now. Hopefully we won't have to contend with any of that. Boyne may finally be turning the corner, we'll see for sure in a few more years.

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[cdskier]

They are not $120 ever. Not if you go on line and buy them. And I guess you would say the same thing about Killington, Stowe, Jay and any other ski major ski area. they are all close to that price now.

Seriously...in this day and age of technology I can't really feel too bad for people that pay full price when there are so many ways to save money between Quad packs or even simply ordering online. Don't get me wrong, I think day ticket prices in general are too high across the industry as a whole, but Sugarbush is in line with their peers so it is hard to argue they should offer significantly cheaper tickets than those other resorts.

And the flip side of this high day ticket price thing is that season passes have actually come DOWN in price over the years. The resort does need to make money somehow in order to stay alive and be able to re-invest in the mountain. You can't have cheap prices AND expect constant upgrades to lifts, snowmaking, and other infrastructure.

Personally I had my cost per day at SB last year down to under $15 a day (and I'm primarily a weekend-only skier). Really hard to complain about that...

As for the high cost of food that tuna mentioned, I really don't find them out of line with other resorts there either. Cafeterias in general are a rip-off. Places like the Castlerock pub however are actually quite reasonably priced. A burger at CRP will cost you about the same as anywhere else in the valley.

Edit: and if someone wants cheap day skiing at Sugarbush, get a ME only ticket. Walk up they are $78 weekends and can be had in the 50s on weekends purchasing online in advance. Or $30 walk up on Thursdays at ME...

 

[1dog]

opinions are like nostrils - everyones got a couple - and prices are what the market will bear. As mentioned, you can't have reinvested capital if you don't have any. Unlike other short-lived companies, SV won't do debt ( exception some small EB-5 for the condo thing).
If they were public, bet they'd have a more solid balance sheet than most larger solo operations in ski country.

If you have cut-rate prices, you'll have crowds. If you go the other way, ( Stowe walk up %159 last I heard) you might STILL have crowds because of Mass Pass Craze.

The deals give more people access to try more areas - if and when the dust settles, more may chose MRV to settle in and become a weekend local for all the reasons we're all here.

Its never going to be a cheap sport - and this type thing may help it grow since feeder hills are MIA.

Anyone have a Farmers or Old Farmers Almanac prediction? I always take the coldest, snowiest as gospel.

Anticipation is almost as good as the real thing. Foreplay. Snow on the Presidentials anyway.

 

[Hawk]

Well they are $120 if you walk up on a weekend and over $100 weekdays, maybe more or a couple $ less, but it's close either way.

I would say the same about Killington and Stowe. Okemo is right up there too now. Jay Peak is about $30 cheaper which IMO is a fair price to charge especially considering how others have broken the triple digit barrier.

Sugarbush, Killington and Jay I use 50% off passes and have for years. Stowe I use Ski VT passes.

Sometimes the topic comes up of "underserved populations" and their "access to the sport of skiing". Guess what, these are the same folks who simply drive up to a ski area and pay full price because they haven't been initiated into the art of getting deals for the season, as many of us do. I'm OK paying $60 to ski Sugarbush but the idea that some poor sap and his girlfriend just paid $120 each, and they took a few beginner runs before calling it quits... not a good situation!

Seems to me Eastern skiers should all rally around the concept of keeping tickets in the double digits. Or do we need more Hermitage Clubs?

edit: Yeah Jay Peak is $89 walk up rate this year. Up from $78 last I checked. So $30 cheaper than the Stowe/Sugar/Killington roughly.

I guess I am just not that kind of skier to relate to the dilemma of the person that walks up to the window, not knowing all the options and just buying full price. Who does that? Well unless they are wealthy and really don't give a F@#$. I ski Sugarbush for $25 a day, I can ski any day I want and I can ski at 7:30am Saturdays, Sundays and Holiday weeks. Not bad if you ask me.
Actually and Additionally...Skiing is a privilege and not a right. It is priced as the market goes. I made sacrifices and cut cost else ware to subsidize my skiing addiction. This is what you have to do if you want to ski a lot when you are young and poor. The ski areas do not owe us cheaper prices. If you ask me the areas are staring to get overrun by the cheap ticket deals. I can't wait until it all falls down and pricing goes up. It will cut down on the numbers. Hopefully. ;-)

 

[crazy]

Seriously...in this day and age of technology I can't really feel too bad for people that pay full price when there are so many ways to save money between Quad packs or even simply ordering online.

I guess I am just not that kind of skier to relate to the dilemma of the person that walks up to the window, not knowing all the options and just buying full price. Who does that?

Count me in the group that doesn't have a whole lot of sympathy for people who pay walk-up rates. Skiing costs a ton of money. That's always been true, be it today, 10 years ago, or 30 years ago. I do not think that very many people from "underserved populations" are skiing, period. Whether or not you are paying a lot for a lift ticket, skiing requires expensive equipment and transportation, both of which cost way more than a few lift tickets if you're skiing for the first time, or only ski a couple of days a season.

For those without a lot of money, all it costs is a little bit of time to figure out how to get rates that are much better than the walk-up rates. Just buying tickets in advance on the resort webpages saves money. Using Liftopia saves money. With a bit more time, you can discover deals like the Ski VT 4-pack or the Fox44 card that save even more money. Or, better yet, if you know you're going to ski more than even a few times a season, get a season pass. The cost per visit can be very small.

I've said this so many times but I have to keep saying it: if you are new to skiing, or you only want to ski a couple of times a year (likely this means your skill level isn't super high), ski at a small, independent resort! Instead of going to Sugarbush, a big fancy resort with a ton of vertical and lots of runs that you probably aren't capable of enjoying, go to Suicide Six. Or Cochran's. Or Bromley. Or Magic. It just doesn't make sense for a beginner to go somewhere like Killington, or Sugarbush, or Stowe over one of these smaller resorts, unless money isn't the paramount concern (as is the case for many skiers).

Let's also be clear that high walk-up rates help subsidize season pass prices. What's incredible is that season pass prices across New England have mostly gone down over time, or come with much more value. Look at the price of a Stowe season pass now versus a few years ago. Or a Sugarbush or Cannon season pass. Not to mention the crazy value that is an Epic Pass or Ikon Pass. Now is an incredible time to be skiing. Your lift ticket $/day can be tiny very easily. Basically all skis and snowboards being manufactured now are of very high quality, so you can feel good about buying skis/snowboard from a few years ago and it will perform super well.

In short, I know that walk-up rates are climbing much faster than inflation, but I believe that there is a bright side, and skiing as a whole is in a very good place now.

 

[mister moose]

For those without a lot of money, all it costs is a little bit of time to figure out how to get rates that are much better than the walk-up rates. ... ski at a small, independent resort! Instead of going to Sugarbush, a big fancy resort with a ton of vertical and lots of runs that you probably aren't capable of enjoying, go to Suicide Six. Or Cochran's. Or Bromley. Or Magic. It just doesn't make sense for a beginner to go somewhere like Killington, or Sugarbush, or Stowe over one of these smaller resorts, unless money isn't the paramount concern (as is the case for many skiers).

Excellent post. To which I'll add the large resorts sometimes have outrageous learn to ski packages. Cheaper than the local mole hill, especially in January. The equipment you get and instructor teaching you will likely be better than the mole hill. So yes, after the initial introduction, continue to learn at Bousquet, Middlebury, Butternut (season pass right now $349!!!). Skiing is expensive, but it doesn't have to be out of reach.

 

[1dog]

used to be ( and may well still be in effect) at Sugarbush - buy a 1st time ever ski lesson package - 3 or 4 lessons/rentals maybe? and get a season pass for rest of the year - a great deal.
my local ski shop has a seasonal lease equipment package for kids and they get a season pass at Bretton Woods free.

All kinds of ways. both posts make good arguments for those on a budget - and lets not forget about Waitsfield Schoo Ski Swap next month. Hard to beat those deals.

I've been hearing how outrageous skiing costs are since I started - its never changed.
Same answer to the question ' why is divorce so expensive? - 'cause it's worth it.'

 

[cdskier]

At least I can understand the argument about high costs for someone that just wants to enter the sport. Programs like 1dog mentions are great (and that Sugarbush one for older first timers does still exist last I checked), but I can understand that a true beginner may not even think to look for things like that and may just hear about how expensive day tickets are and be scared off without doing much research. We always complain that we need new people in the sport in order for it to be sustainable long term. So I do understand that high entry costs can be one factor that hurts growth potential.

I have far less sympathy for people that have been skiing for a long time and still expect to be able to ski a large resort with high costs for next to nothing. If you want to commit to a single resort (or group of resorts under one ownership roof), then you can buy a season pass and be rewarded for your loyalty with a low cost per day. The break-even point on passes is ridiculously low now compared to years ago.

If however you want to go to a different resort every week, then that person needs to be prepared to put in the work to find deals. I'm ok with resorts opting not to cater to that crowd via low walk-up ticket rates. Those people can go to smaller resorts with lower overhead that can get away with lower ticket rates if they don't want to plan ahead or look for deals. But to expect the large resorts to bend over backwards to cater to a crowd that wants to make a last minute decision on when to go and that may ultimately only visit once or twice a season seems a bit silly. For people that are visiting 4 or more days, you already have great deals like the SB Quad packs. If that deal isn't cheap enough then I really don't know what to say. There are certainly choices and options available.

 

[Hawk]

I hope that everybody realizes that the larger resorts and the big conglomerates are raising the daily window prices to basically force people to consider season passes so they get their operating capital up front. That is the main reason the window prices are up so much. This is the industry trend that was created first by Vail.