The "Sugarbush Thread"

[mister moose]

Excessive. Have you ever been at Sugarbush for the weeks after a rain or thaw event mid winter? It takes them a good long while to get things back in order. Only trails like Snow ball, Spring Fling or Steins are set up to get a good coating after rain. That process is also hindered because they have to break down hoses and guns one trail, drag them to the next trail and set it up. That is my opinion as well as the opinion of everybody I ski with. This whole discussion about upgrading their capacity was part of the greater discussion on Climate change. They realize that with the volatile weather patterns that are part of this new climate regime, they are going to need increased capacity to deal with it. Recovery from warming events to maintain the skier experience will be a big part of what will make them better in the future. They just have to figure out how to pay for that. That is the rub.

This is the primary reason I'm at Killington instead of Sugarbush. There were just too many days there was too little terrain at Sugarbush, and what was open was a slick mess. There's nothing climate change about this. Snowmaking was invented here in New England in the 60's for this reason - rain and lack of dependable natural snow. Yes, when nature delivers the goods Sugarbush is a lot of fun.

 

[crazy]

Excessive. Have you ever been at Sugarbush for the weeks after a rain or thaw event mid winter? It takes them a good long while to get things back in order. Only trails like Snow ball, Spring Fling or Steins are set up to get a good coating after rain. That process is also hindered because they have to break down hoses and guns one trail, drag them to the next trail and set it up. That is my opinion as well as the opinion of everybody I ski with. This whole discussion about upgrading their capacity was part of the greater discussion on Climate change. They realize that with the volatile weather patterns that are part of this new climate regime, they are going to need increased capacity to deal with it. Recovery from warming events to maintain the skier experience will be a big part of what will make them better in the future. They just have to figure out how to pay for that. That is the rub.

100% agree. Recovery is incredibly important. The reason that skiing conditions are often much better in the American West than here in New England has less to do with snowfall (Jay, Smuggs, and Stowe get as much or more snow than a surprising number of western mountains) and much more to do with rain and freeze/thaw. The PNW also suffers from rain and freeze/thaw, just not quite as much, and they get quite a bit more snowfall than we do (even including Jay, Smuggs, and Stowe).

 

[cdskier]

I'm not sure I've ever contemplated snowmaking being "excessive" at any ski Eastern ski area in terms of capacity as long as the amount they use that capacity allows the ski area to still be comfortable with their profit margins.

Excessive in terms of percentage of terrain covered? Sure. I think many areas do not leave enough terrain all natural. I'd rather more snowmaking resource spent on resurfacing terrain than trying to blanket almost everything. Sugarbush I think gets this mix right.

Yes it sucks when all natural needs to remain closed for days, weeks at a time during bad weather, but the payoff is worth it when mother nature delivers

I think I pretty much agree with what you're saying across the board. The current % of terrain covered with snowmaking is fairly ideal (I could think of maybe a couple traverses or runouts where it may pay to add some snowmaking eventually such as Heaven's Gate traverse, but no major trails that don't currently have it would benefit as far as I'm concerned). Finding a way to increase capacity so you can either more quickly open those existing snowmaking trails or more quickly refresh them after a thaw/freeze type event would be a good long term strategy. As Hawk said though, the challenge is figuring out how to pay for it.

 

[slatham]

The reality is IF you want to compete with the majors based on snowmaking alone, Sugarbush would have to be able to simultaneously make snow on multiple pods. To me this means at LEAST Jester/Downspout, Snowball/Spring Fling, Birch, Pushover and Village. Keep in mind this is for resurfacing, so you don't need every hydrant lit up all night. But still, this would require a massive uptick in capacity.

Whether the cost/benefit analysis warrants this vs. current strategy is unknown to me.

 

[1dog]

I wonder what the cost of electricity contributes to this cost as a % of overall cost of say an acre of snow 12" deep ( or whatever standard the industry uses).

In MA, last I looked, we had the highest residential cost per kwH partly due to efficency regs, partly due to the blocking of that hydro line from Canada ( and I certainly understand those who oppose it in NH/VT)

Its gotta be a large factor right behind water access/storage?

Anyone?

 

[deadheadskier]

I'm sure someone has the cost numbers. Likely varies a great deal depending on temperature and humidity. Wind is obviously a big factor as well.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[bumpcrasher]

This is the primary reason I'm at Killington instead of Sugarbush. There were just too many days there was too little terrain at Sugarbush, and what was open was a slick mess. There's nothing climate change about this. Snowmaking was invented here in New England in the 60's for this reason - rain and lack of dependable natural snow. Yes, when nature delivers the goods Sugarbush is a lot of fun.

AGREED!! We load up every year on ticket deals to Killington to be prepared for the thaw/freeze cycle. The quality and quantity of snow at Killington is impressive by comparison.

I must say, the Bush has gotten slightly better at resurfacing. I'm thinking Stein's, Downsprout and Grinder in early February 2019. Hope to see more of it!!

 

[tumbler]

The reality is IF you want to compete with the majors based on snowmaking alone, Sugarbush would have to be able to simultaneously make snow on multiple pods. To me this means at LEAST Jester/Downspout, Snowball/Spring Fling, Birch, Pushover and Village. Keep in mind this is for resurfacing, so you don't need every hydrant lit up all night. But still, this would require a massive uptick in capacity.

Whether the cost/benefit analysis warrants this vs. current strategy is unknown to me.

Used to run multiple pods at once back in the ASC days when portable air compressors were brought in for more air capacity. Also the philosophy was different then. Had guns, towers and hoses on almost every trail and would bounce around resurfacing instead of running on one trail for a week then having to strip and move everything to another trail. Also the goal was to not make piles but move the guns to have an even surface of dry snow, not wet slop. Only dry snow now is when it is so cold it can't be wetter. Been lucky on Stein's a few times to get the cold dry gunpowder.

 

[1dog]

Used to run multiple pods at once back in the ASC days when portable air compressors were brought in for more air capacity. Also the philosophy was different then. Had guns, towers and hoses on almost every trail and would bounce around resurfacing instead of running on one trail for a week then having to strip and move everything to another trail. Also the goal was to not make piles but move the guns to have an even surface of dry snow, not wet slop. Only dry snow now is when it is so cold it can't be wetter. Been lucky on Stein's a few times to get the cold dry gunpowder.

I recall those days. They dumped a lot of $$ in and those portable generators were hauled all over the place.

The new guns seem to give dryer snow, are much quieter and if I remember correctly, use 80% less energy than ones they replaced. Also used less water ( which makes sense -dryer snow = less H2O)

ASC also can be used as an example of creative destruction in another string ( Jay) - it went belly up and SV comes in and takes the place and makes it work - for a lot less than originally invested )

 

[tumbler]

I recall those days. They dumped a lot of $$ in and those portable generators were hauled all over the place.

The new guns seem to give dryer snow, are much quieter and if I remember correctly, use 80% less energy than ones they replaced. Also used less water ( which makes sense -dryer snow = less H2O)

ASC also can be used as an example of creative destruction in another string ( Jay) - it went belly up and SV comes in and takes the place and makes it work - for a lot less than originally invested )

New guns used less energy. In snowmaking air is the constant and water is the variable. More cold, more water used. New guns are much more quiet because they use much less air. I disagree on the quality of the snow though. The older air hogs made a finer water molecule for a lighter product. The new less air guns have a larger molecule and I find wetter. Much of it is up to snowmakers adjusting with the temps. ASC did many things wrong, but they did know how to make snow.

 

[mister moose]

New guns used less energy. In snowmaking air is the constant and water is the variable. More cold, more water used. New guns are much more quiet because they use much less air. I disagree on the quality of the snow though. The older air hogs made a finer water molecule for a lighter product. The new less air guns have a larger molecule and I find wetter. Much of it is up to snowmakers adjusting with the temps. ASC did many things wrong, but they did know how to make snow.

Yes and no. Yes, new guns use far less air. The K3000s use on the order of 60 cfm each, and the new Snow Logics use a tenth of that. Both frequently put out wet snow, and the only conclusion as a skier observer is it is for higher production and it forms a harder base. No, both can make dry snow. I've seen the snow logics put out talc dry snow when cold enough, below 20 degrees. (They do have a characteristic plume, wetter closer in, drier farther out) One thing the new guns can't do is make snow in marginal temps, the air hogs are always out early season.

Superstar right now is lined with a K3000 every 15 feet, later on in February for the big build they will run the Snow Logic towers for a week or more 24-7.

 

[ss20]

Sheesh...can't I get ONE other person who thinks tripling snowmaking capacity is "excessive"? ;-)

Perhaps I should have phrased it..."I'd prefer to see that money spent in other areas" such as a new Mt. Ellen lodge or saving up for an eventual replacement of Heaven's Gate or Gatehouse. That said, I don't have an SB pass and can pick/choose my days for when there's good snow (which...imo...is often enough not to warrant tripling pumping capacity).

 

[deadheadskier]

Well to get agreement, you would need to put the financials on the table to compare and contrast.

Tripling snowmaking capacity costs "X"

Heavens Gate Chair has had it's issues, and will get replaced someday, but likely nothing more than a FG Quad due to exposure. Maybe with Conveyor. Call that $4M

GateHouse is still young. Not going away anytime soon I would think. But call that $6M

New Ellen Lodge, which really is only needed on Saturdays and holidays? That's big bucks for limited return.

I'll take the snowmaking capacity thanks.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[Newpylong]

Yes and no. Yes, new guns use far less air. The K3000s use on the order of 60 cfm each, and the new Snow Logics use a tenth of that. Both frequently put out wet snow, and the only conclusion as a skier observer is it is for higher production and it forms a harder base. No, both can make dry snow. I've seen the snow logics put out talc dry snow when cold enough, below 20 degrees. (They do have a characteristic plume, wetter closer in, drier farther out) One thing the new guns can't do is make snow in marginal temps, the air hogs are always out early season.

Superstar right now is lined with a K3000 every 15 feet, later on in February for the big build they will run the Snow Logic towers for a week or more 24-7.

Add a 0 to that figure, the K3000 will use up to 600 CFM if you give it to them!

 

[cdskier]

Well to get agreement, you would need to put the financials on the table to compare and contrast.

Tripling snowmaking capacity costs "X"

Heavens Gate Chair has had it's issues, and will get replaced someday, but likely nothing more than a FG Quad due to exposure. Maybe with Conveyor. Call that $4M

GateHouse is still young. Not going away anytime soon I would think. But call that $6M

New Ellen Lodge, which really is only needed on Saturdays and holidays? That's big bucks for limited return.

I'll take the snowmaking capacity thanks.

And isn't the Ellen Lodge being expanded potentially next year anyway by Vermont Adaptive? Once they sink that money in I can't see the ME lodge being replaced at any point in the near future.

I'm also still not sure their goal is to ever "triple" snowmaking. I think the numbers may be off a bit because unless something has changed, they currently have around 4K GPM capacity at LP, not 2K. Tripling that brings you to 12K GPM which would be essentially Killington levels. I don't see that happening ever.

 

[Newpylong]

Used to run multiple pods at once back in the ASC days when portable air compressors were brought in for more air capacity. Also the philosophy was different then. Had guns, towers and hoses on almost every trail and would bounce around resurfacing instead of running on one trail for a week then having to strip and move everything to another trail. Also the goal was to not make piles but move the guns to have an even surface of dry snow, not wet slop. Only dry snow now is when it is so cold it can't be wetter. Been lucky on Stein's a few times to get the cold dry gunpowder.

No - air is not their limiting factor, and never was, water is. ASC used rentals and Summit Ventures installed electric fixed air. ASC also required more air back then as SR7's, etc were the norm. They currently very rarely use all of the air compression that they own in house.

 

[Newpylong]

And isn't the Ellen Lodge being expanded potentially next year anyway by Vermont Adaptive? Once they sink that money in I can't see the ME lodge being replaced at any point in the near future.

I'm also still not sure their goal is to ever "triple" snowmaking. I think the numbers may be off a bit because unless something has changed, they currently have around 4K GPM capacity at LP, not 2K. Tripling that brings you to 12K GPM which would be essentially Killington levels. I don't see that happening ever.

3800 GPM Lincoln, 2500 GPM Ellen.

Not a lot of capacity for that much acreage. Wildcat has a similar situation.

 

[Newpylong]

New guns used less energy. In snowmaking air is the constant and water is the variable. More cold, more water used. New guns are much more quiet because they use much less air. I disagree on the quality of the snow though. The older air hogs made a finer water molecule for a lighter product. The new less air guns have a larger molecule and I find wetter. Much of it is up to snowmakers adjusting with the temps. ASC did many things wrong, but they did know how to make snow.

In modern snowmaking with internal mix guns with selectable stages, both air and water are variables. The new guns are not quieter because they use less air, they are quieter because the orifices are smaller. 50 CFM or 500 CFM at 110 PSI is still going to be as loud as hell given the same size hole. But look at the size of a Ratnik or SR7 gun orifice to that of an HKD or Snow Logic (for example).

Low E guns are just as capable of making a dry product, and High E guns just as capable of making a wet product. A lot of that comes down to user error or a conscious decision to sacrifice quality for quantity.

 

[ThinkSnow]

And isn't the Ellen Lodge being expanded potentially next year anyway by Vermont Adaptive? Once they sink that money in I can't see the ME lodge being replaced at any point in the near future.

If you want to see the ME lodge expansion completed faster, donate to VT Adaptive:

https://vermontadaptive.salsalabs.org/homesweethome/index.html

 

[cdskier]

If you want to see the ME lodge expansion completed faster, donate to VT Adaptive:

https://vermontadaptive.salsalabs.org/homesweethome/index.html

Yup. Great suggestion. I did actually donate to VT Adaptive just a few months ago (although not specifically for the lodge expansion as it was a more general donation if I recall correctly).