Zand
Well-known member
Now do Jay.
-
Welcome to AlpineZone, the largest online community of skiers and snowboarders in the Northeast!
You may have to REGISTER before you can post. Registering is FREE, gets rid of the majority of advertisements, and lets you participate in giveaways and other AlpineZone events!
The "Sugarbush Thread"
- Thread starter thetrailboss
- Start date
mbedle
Well-known member
Hopefully this will shift some of the crowds away from Stowe.
Hopefully not :razz:
mbedle
Well-known member
Yes - it all depends on where you ski.... lol
machski
Well-known member
I would think this moves reduces the likelihood they will/can do Jay as well. Then again, Vail controls more itself. But the K connection could muddy things for Ikon.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
My prediction is you're going to see skier recruitment numbers drop materially, but it's probably going to take at least a decade to see it in the data. I am not alone in this fear.
Killingtime
Active member
Me too.
I really doubt it. Any $$$ that would have been used for a Jay purchase went into buying Sugarbush. As much as folks here love Jay, you have to admit that from a business perspective Sugarbush is a much better investment. It has many more skier days, a much better location, more acreage, more vertical, much newer infrastructure, a stable ownership, no cloud of criminal activity, a solid four-season business, and has always been compared to Stowe.
As to Sugarbush, I will post a more thoughtful post later today summarizing my POV.
I'm happy for Win and his partners. Yet I'm a bit sad. Hopefully this will be a net positive and very little will change. That said, one of the big reasons that I love Sugarbush is the vibe that I get there that I rarely feel outside of SB and MRG. Fingers crossed that the vibe will still be a good one.
The biggest change is me learning to be an employee again :smile: But I was one for 28 years so I guess it will come back. I am actually very excited to stay on and help to maintain the vibe along with the rest of our great team. We are having a community forum next Wednesday at 5pm in the Gate House Lodge and all are welcome. Then we are shooting for a passholder appreciation day on Friday, November 22nd, followed by official opening on Saturday the 23rd. I moved by ski gear into my mountain office so ready to go.
Congrats Win.
looking forward to many improvements in the near future.
and, please ask Alterra to add the Hawk to the snowmaking advisory council.
:beer:
The Ikon pass will have benefits in terms of ski area choices, but costs are going up substantially for teens, college students, twentysomethings, thirtysomethings, and seniors. For a full pass (no blackouts, etc.), Ikon's early-purchase prices were: $949 (23+), $699 (13-22), $299 (5-12), $49 (0-4). Expect substantial cost increases for families with kids. College kids may prefer Bolton or Smugs to keep costs down. Additionally, Mount Ellen only passes may be a thing of the past. Sugarbush has had aggressively age discriminatory pricing that Ikon does not.
This is correct. However, my daughter is in college and got the SB pass for this season. I want to say it was $349. She will be going with her school ski club on trips to Sugarbush, Tremblant and Breck. The additional cost for tremblant and breck are going to be more than the increased price for the Ikon.
Yes, the Ikon pass is a better product -- meaning that it is an enhanced pass that can be used more widely. The utility of that benefit will be specifically situational. Some will use the benefit, some may not. Regardless, the entry cost for families is more.
The Hawk snowmaking pond! Where will it be?
So here are my thoughts, admittedly from afar, but I was a regular Sugarbush skier from 2000-2011, and a fan since at least 1994.
As to Win and Summit Ventures, they have been the best thing that could have happened to Sugarbush. They have offered nearly 20 years of stability and consistent improvement. This is not matched to probably as far back as the Gadds. They were very much local and were at the right place at the right time. I recall in 2001 being a bit hesitant because selfishly I loved having the student "ASC All East Pass", but it was clear very soon that Win and his investors were very much set on making much needed improvements to lifts and snowmaking.
Taking our skier and rider interests aside, one has to admit that this was probably the very best time to sell in the last 10 years or so and probably will be the best window for the next 5-10 years. The economy is hot. Market prices are high. There is an obvious arms race between two well-funded national resort companies, Vail and Alterra. Labor is hard to come by. And, nothing personal, but Win and his partners are getting up there in age. As to the new owners, Alterra is probably the least evil option. I will expand more upon that.
As to what to expect--this is not the first time that a multi-resort national (or regional) resort group has owned Sugarbush. Les Otten, then LBO Enterprises, first leased Sugarbush as his third resort in 1993 or 1994 and then took it over in 1995 investing $28 million in much needed improvements. The love stopped in the late 1990's and 2000 or so because locals did not like the proposed Grand Summit Hotel. That, as well as declining revenue from overexpansion, led to a very steady decline in the ski area. So ASC/LBO had very much promise at the start and fizzled out.
As to changes here, it depends on who you are and your perspective. The folks who have shelled out for special access, early runs, VIP snowcat tours, etc. are going to be the ones who are most pissed. That is because those things are likely coming to an end and there will be A LOT more folks on the slopes. Not to burn any bridges or piss anyone off (admittedly these types of folks are NOT going to be on here), but one of the things that I really began to dislike in my last year was the "country club" atmosphere and entitlement culture that began to develop at Sugarbush, particularly LP. That said, from a business perspective, I get why a business needs to do that in order to generate revenue. But, these special people are going to be the ones who will get pissed first, just like at Deer Valley this past season with the new regime not doing as well with snowmaking, grooming, and operations and the resulting crowds from the Ikon pass. I have talked to multiple DV regulars who have told me that a lot of folks are selling their homes and are not happy. This is not to say that Sugarbush is most like Deer Valley--it isn't at all.
If you're a regular weekend warrior, you will have to get used to set opening and closing dates, regardless of snow cover. That will likely result in probably shorter seasons. Who knows though. You will also have to fend with more folks on the slopes, but you now have many more options for skiing and riding now all over NE. So it is probably a wash.
If you were one of the folks who got the limited ME pass, which was a very good product for the VT locals market at a good pricepoint, say goodbye to that. Same with the 20's pass and other discounted products.
In the years I skied at SB, they did honor MRG passes on occasion for early season skiing. They also offered some deals in between the two. I don't know if that is still the case, but if it is, expect those to end. And if you are an MRG skier, expect probably more folks jumping ship and going there if ihings to get too crowded and if decisions are not popular as to season length, snowmaking coverage, etc.
As to a good comparison? I don't really know of one. Aspen, technically, is a part of the Ikon pass, but NOT an Alterra Resort per se. AFAIK Aspen remains a Crown property that is affiliated with Alterra, but is not owned by Alterra. Crown owns a piece of Alterra. Likewise, Squaw/Alpine Meadows is still a KSL property and similarly is related to Alterra, but separate. KSL has pissed a lot of locals off in Tahoe, but it is California and someone is always pissed off there. Deer Valley and Aspen are "limited" Ikon resorts, meaning that Ikon only buys you five or seven days of access. They are the premium product offerings that require folks to shell out a lot more money for a full pass. Folks here are saying that SB is going to be an unlimited Ikon offering, so DV and Aspen are not at all good comparisons, except suffice to say that both have locals pissed at the amount of crowding that has occurred.
The only Alterra resort I can compare SB to, and probably not even very well, is the experience with Solitude. Solitude was a DV resort meant to be a mainstream offering and meant to buffer DV from Vail's expansion. Alterra bought and took over Solitude only last season. The biggest thing was that it was the ONLY unlimited Ikon offering here in SLC and the Wasatch Front. It is clear that Alterra really underestimated the impact of Ikon and demand. They BS about "it was a good snow year", but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the discount pass was the main driver to crowding and parking problems that they had. The paid parking idea was poorly rolled out and was really a lame way to control that crowding issue and force the problem onto other Ikon partner resorts. That is not at all popular. And no, the money was not to be used for more bussing or transit options but instead was a revenue generator.
Overall, crowding was the biggest issue with Solitude. Having a good snow year, snowmaking and grooming were not really tested. Season length was shortened. They started much later than in the past. I know that staffing has turned over and a lot of folks at DV and Solitude have left. This season, which is already warm and dry, is going to test Alterra's ops at Solitude. Frankly, IMHO Solitude was always a sub-par ski area in this area when compared to the overwhelming competition. I've skied there a few times and it is just OK. I know a lot of folks love it on AZ, but it has a very odd layout and weird lift arrangement. That said, DV and Alterra have added one new HSQ and another is coming. Locals are pissed that their secret spot is now discovered and that parking is now no longer free. Not a good place to be.
So we will see what happens with SB. I am interested to hear what people think now that a multi-resort company once again controls it. The last one got run out of town by the locals.
As to Win and Summit Ventures, they have been the best thing that could have happened to Sugarbush. They have offered nearly 20 years of stability and consistent improvement. This is not matched to probably as far back as the Gadds. They were very much local and were at the right place at the right time. I recall in 2001 being a bit hesitant because selfishly I loved having the student "ASC All East Pass", but it was clear very soon that Win and his investors were very much set on making much needed improvements to lifts and snowmaking.
Taking our skier and rider interests aside, one has to admit that this was probably the very best time to sell in the last 10 years or so and probably will be the best window for the next 5-10 years. The economy is hot. Market prices are high. There is an obvious arms race between two well-funded national resort companies, Vail and Alterra. Labor is hard to come by. And, nothing personal, but Win and his partners are getting up there in age. As to the new owners, Alterra is probably the least evil option. I will expand more upon that.
As to what to expect--this is not the first time that a multi-resort national (or regional) resort group has owned Sugarbush. Les Otten, then LBO Enterprises, first leased Sugarbush as his third resort in 1993 or 1994 and then took it over in 1995 investing $28 million in much needed improvements. The love stopped in the late 1990's and 2000 or so because locals did not like the proposed Grand Summit Hotel. That, as well as declining revenue from overexpansion, led to a very steady decline in the ski area. So ASC/LBO had very much promise at the start and fizzled out.
As to changes here, it depends on who you are and your perspective. The folks who have shelled out for special access, early runs, VIP snowcat tours, etc. are going to be the ones who are most pissed. That is because those things are likely coming to an end and there will be A LOT more folks on the slopes. Not to burn any bridges or piss anyone off (admittedly these types of folks are NOT going to be on here), but one of the things that I really began to dislike in my last year was the "country club" atmosphere and entitlement culture that began to develop at Sugarbush, particularly LP. That said, from a business perspective, I get why a business needs to do that in order to generate revenue. But, these special people are going to be the ones who will get pissed first, just like at Deer Valley this past season with the new regime not doing as well with snowmaking, grooming, and operations and the resulting crowds from the Ikon pass. I have talked to multiple DV regulars who have told me that a lot of folks are selling their homes and are not happy. This is not to say that Sugarbush is most like Deer Valley--it isn't at all.
If you're a regular weekend warrior, you will have to get used to set opening and closing dates, regardless of snow cover. That will likely result in probably shorter seasons. Who knows though. You will also have to fend with more folks on the slopes, but you now have many more options for skiing and riding now all over NE. So it is probably a wash.
If you were one of the folks who got the limited ME pass, which was a very good product for the VT locals market at a good pricepoint, say goodbye to that. Same with the 20's pass and other discounted products.
In the years I skied at SB, they did honor MRG passes on occasion for early season skiing. They also offered some deals in between the two. I don't know if that is still the case, but if it is, expect those to end. And if you are an MRG skier, expect probably more folks jumping ship and going there if ihings to get too crowded and if decisions are not popular as to season length, snowmaking coverage, etc.
As to a good comparison? I don't really know of one. Aspen, technically, is a part of the Ikon pass, but NOT an Alterra Resort per se. AFAIK Aspen remains a Crown property that is affiliated with Alterra, but is not owned by Alterra. Crown owns a piece of Alterra. Likewise, Squaw/Alpine Meadows is still a KSL property and similarly is related to Alterra, but separate. KSL has pissed a lot of locals off in Tahoe, but it is California and someone is always pissed off there. Deer Valley and Aspen are "limited" Ikon resorts, meaning that Ikon only buys you five or seven days of access. They are the premium product offerings that require folks to shell out a lot more money for a full pass. Folks here are saying that SB is going to be an unlimited Ikon offering, so DV and Aspen are not at all good comparisons, except suffice to say that both have locals pissed at the amount of crowding that has occurred.
The only Alterra resort I can compare SB to, and probably not even very well, is the experience with Solitude. Solitude was a DV resort meant to be a mainstream offering and meant to buffer DV from Vail's expansion. Alterra bought and took over Solitude only last season. The biggest thing was that it was the ONLY unlimited Ikon offering here in SLC and the Wasatch Front. It is clear that Alterra really underestimated the impact of Ikon and demand. They BS about "it was a good snow year", but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the discount pass was the main driver to crowding and parking problems that they had. The paid parking idea was poorly rolled out and was really a lame way to control that crowding issue and force the problem onto other Ikon partner resorts. That is not at all popular. And no, the money was not to be used for more bussing or transit options but instead was a revenue generator.
Overall, crowding was the biggest issue with Solitude. Having a good snow year, snowmaking and grooming were not really tested. Season length was shortened. They started much later than in the past. I know that staffing has turned over and a lot of folks at DV and Solitude have left. This season, which is already warm and dry, is going to test Alterra's ops at Solitude. Frankly, IMHO Solitude was always a sub-par ski area in this area when compared to the overwhelming competition. I've skied there a few times and it is just OK. I know a lot of folks love it on AZ, but it has a very odd layout and weird lift arrangement. That said, DV and Alterra have added one new HSQ and another is coming. Locals are pissed that their secret spot is now discovered and that parking is now no longer free. Not a good place to be.
So we will see what happens with SB. I am interested to hear what people think now that a multi-resort company once again controls it. The last one got run out of town by the locals.
KustyTheKlown
Well-known member
good post
i think mrg and sugarbush still have companion products, student passes with cheap mrg add-ons, something like that
agreed re: solitude. place is weird. need to ride 4 lifts and ski 3 connector runs to lap the good terrain
i think mrg and sugarbush still have companion products, student passes with cheap mrg add-ons, something like that
agreed re: solitude. place is weird. need to ride 4 lifts and ski 3 connector runs to lap the good terrain
Similar threads
