The "Sugarbush Thread"

[cdskier]

Win, can you give some insights into why Slide Brook operates only on weekends and holidays these days? Are there weather and/or evacuation considerations that go into determining when that lift can run? Thanks!

?

As long as there is sufficient snow-pack on the access routes into Slide Brook and as long as the temps are above a certain value (5, 10, something like that...can't remember exactly), then the lift runs 7 days a week. Years ago it was weekends/holidays only. But it has been a 7 day a week lift for I want to say at least 5+ years now.

 

[WinS]

Dudes, like Win must have made serious bucks on SB. Bought for $6m and sold for $60+m, or maybe more. All you guys talking bout how his tenure is so so wonderful. Well, sb has seen very modest improvements over the many years, but someone walked away with tens of mils. It ain't you, skiers, that benefited from Saint Win.

Vermonteer, I have to respond to this misinformation. Your numbers are wrong but you are correct directionally. Businesses are bought and sold on a multiple of cash earnings. So when you buy a failing and unprofitable business and sell a profitable one obviously you sell at a higher price. If a business is not profitable you build up deferred maintenance and can not invest in improvements. You must not have been to Sugarbush these past 18 years if you think there have only been modest improvements. We have invested over $70 million in improvements (not including real estate development) to both the mountain experience and other areas of the resort such as the golf course. I do not think 7 new lifts, upgrades to most of the other 9, three new energy efficient snowmaking compressors, a fleet of new groomers, miles of new snowmaking pipe, hundreds of new energy efficient snow guns and towers, three new base lodges and hudnereds of over capital improvements qualifies as modest. I am proud of what we have done and believe the vast majority of our guest are pleased with the results.

 

[WinS]

Win, can you give some insights into why Slide Brook operates only on weekends and holidays these days? Are there weather and/or evacuation considerations that go into determining when that lift can run? Thanks!

Once Mount Ellen opens in December we schedule it to run every day until ME closes at the end of March. Our lift mechanics have to be able to get to the 40 towers quickly and safely on snow mobiles. They access them over a number of work roads in Slidebrook and it requires sufficient snow depth for that to happen. Also in the unlikely event of a lift evacuation we need to get patrol in there quickly as well and guests out safely. Another reason the lift might not run is wind. As you know there are several places where it is very exposed to the elements which makes it quite vulnerable to wind from different directions. Finally, for safety we do not run it when the temps are below 5 degrees.

 

[jimmywilson69]

As always thanks Win!

 

[mister moose]

Dudes, like Win must have made serious bucks on SB. Bought for $6m and sold for $60+m, or maybe more. All you guys talking bout how his tenure is so so wonderful. Well, sb has seen very modest improvements over the many years, but someone walked away with tens of mils. It ain't you, skiers, that benefited from Saint Win.

Wondering if you're concerned with making bucks at your job. Wondering if you'd feel better if Win lost money and SB was in deteriorating shape. Wondering what you'd think if you'd invested your retirement in shares of a company that performed well and made a profit.

 

[Hawk]

This is a new person to this forum. He or she registered and posted their first post. I have no idea who they are but it feels like either a current or past employee or a local that just plain does not like the sale. As someone that has skied SB throughout the ASC and Summit Ventures periods, I certainly think there has been more than a modest improvement over the last 15 years.

 

[mikec142]

I would pay Vermonteer zero attention. It's clear that's what he is after. Guy's first post is trolling for attention.

 

[pinnoke]

Win, I'm glad you quickly came to the same defense of your ownership tenure's accomomplishments at Sugarbush, as I already see others doing, as well. The success and growing popularity of Sugarbush is clearly evident, and owning/managing a ski resort ain't for the faint of heart, I'm sure! Besides substantial investment, you've brought passion and accessibility to the community. You're entitled to whatever the fair market has offered for Sugarbush's many assets. Good luck to you and your family, and Alterra, moving forward! Vermonteer has many options where he may bring his boards and opinions besides someplace he resents.

 

[cdskier]

I only started skiing at SB after Win purchased it, but I can without a doubt say that during that time I've seen many improvements that absolutely benefited us skiers (and boarders). I'd fully expect the owner and majority investor to be rewarded at some point for doing a good job and turning a business around. If I'm supposed to feel bad that Win profited on the sale, I don't.

In reality, it is quite impressive just how much Win accomplished. SB was a large resort with a handful of individual people as investors/owners during the Summit Ventures era. Meanwhile most other resorts of that size are owned by a large corporate conglomerate. And yet SB still managed to do all the various improvements that have already been mentioned during that time. Vermonteer comes off as either jealous, or someone like Hawk mentioned as possibilities.

 

[STREETSKIER]

The "Sugarbush Thread"

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[Tonyr]

Vermonteer, I have to respond to this misinformation. Your numbers are wrong but you are correct directionally. Businesses are bought and sold on a multiple of cash earnings. So when you buy a failing and unprofitable business and sell a profitable one obviously you sell at a higher price. If a business is not profitable you build up deferred maintenance and can not invest in improvements. You must not have been to Sugarbush these past 18 years if you think there have only been modest improvements. We have invested over $70 million in improvements (not including real estate development) to both the mountain experience and other areas of the resort such as the golf course. I do not think 7 new lifts, upgrades to most of the other 9, three new energy efficient snowmaking compressors, a fleet of new groomers, miles of new snowmaking pipe, hundreds of new energy efficient snow guns and towers, three new base lodges and hudnereds of over capital improvements qualifies as modest. I am proud of what we have done and believe the vast majority of our guest are pleased with the results.

Why has making money through the culmination of someone's hard work become a dirty word? Isn't that the whole point of working??? Unfortunately Win a shot like that at you is the new world we live in. Gone are the days of appreciating the people who risk capital and more importantly time, taking on a project like Sugarbush when you did. Instead they'll vilify a finacially successful transaction more times than not out of pure jealousy. I don't get it and never will but I can tell you that a large number of us here are very appreciative and thankful for your body of work as the owner of Sugarbush.

Tony

 

[JimG.]

Vermonteer, I have to respond to this misinformation. Your numbers are wrong but you are correct directionally. Businesses are bought and sold on a multiple of cash earnings. So when you buy a failing and unprofitable business and sell a profitable one obviously you sell at a higher price. If a business is not profitable you build up deferred maintenance and can not invest in improvements. You must not have been to Sugarbush these past 18 years if you think there have only been modest improvements. We have invested over $70 million in improvements (not including real estate development) to both the mountain experience and other areas of the resort such as the golf course. I do not think 7 new lifts, upgrades to most of the other 9, three new energy efficient snowmaking compressors, a fleet of new groomers, miles of new snowmaking pipe, hundreds of new energy efficient snow guns and towers, three new base lodges and hudnereds of over capital improvements qualifies as modest. I am proud of what we have done and believe the vast majority of our guest are pleased with the results.

Nothing wrong with working hard to provide an appreciated product and making money doing it.

God bless, that's America! I hope that never changes.

Successful people unfortunately have to always deal with jealousy and haters.

 

[1dog]

Most people are unaware of it, add envy to the mix, and one can see why its easy to see wealth or capitlism attacked.

#8 Class Warfare - Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take ( tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

Rules for Radicals.


I'd counter with these: How many people were employed over the last 18 years because of ( short term) construction, new lodges and condos - housekeeping, maintenance, food service, and any number of permanent jobs associated with expansion/improvements?

How about the tax revenue generated by more paychecks, sales tax, etc.? How about home real estate appreciation which causes local taxes to increase due to value of homes/condos/commercial ventures?

Never seen or measured is the charities that benefit from some with means to give. ( not sure it should be either)
How many colleges and hospital wings were built with wealth?

Bet the guy in Mumbai with the cardboard shack is probably envious of the guy with corrugated metal shack.

Humans - love the free speech though -

+1 JimG;Tonyr

 

[bdfreetuna]

I give Win at least partial credit for keeping Glen Ellen open, $30 Thursdays, and increasing the number of woods-in-play substantially. I've never skied Slide Brook but I'm sure that's a nice area.

I appreciate Sugarbush for a liberal/lax "open trail" policy in the spring (basically it's up to you and your skis if you want to ski it) and be very "sidecountry friendly" while other resorts were on the fence.

I have a few gripes that keep me from being a frequent skier (price/crowds/prefer the culture next door at MRG) ... but I look forward to going back there for a couple days in late March/ early April. Absolute top tier late season experience.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Rules for Radicals.

Can we do a debate thread on the merits of Saul Alinsky? :lol:

 

[1dog]

Woods, - thats the biggest reason for me anyway to have made it my permanent home.

and SB - Bdft - if you like the shorter woods ( at North or South - you'll really like SB - second entrance is the easiest way to start. Think they call it Slip 'N Slide. Closest to say,Eden in terrain. Go with at least one who is familiar. I've skied there for years - and my 9 year old showed me woods I had no idea existed last year.

Alterra - put a large mid-mountain lodge SOMEWHERE above 2500. Gatehouse seems the obvious choice due to 3 lifts converging.

Bottom of Upper Organ Grinder too maybe, just below/beside Deathspout entrance.

That alone could keep the base lodge livable on weekends.

Me? Well, since you asked. . . . . on top - where gondola ended. 360 views, amazing sunsets, year round events. You'll need another lift and at least two more trails down - just don't cut into my favorite woods trail - its not the real name - Spillsville Woods -


Saul! At least he told you what he was gonna do and why, right?

 

[bdfreetuna]

Saul! At least he told you what he was gonna do and why, right?

They always do. It's one of the rules players of "the game" have to follow. Consent is important, whether explicit or implicit.

 

[thetrailboss]

W

Alterra - put a large mid-mountain lodge SOMEWHERE above 2500. Gatehouse seems the obvious choice due to 3 lifts converging.

Bottom of Upper Organ Grinder too maybe, just below/beside Deathspout entrance.

That alone could keep the base lodge livable on weekends.

I highly doubt that will happen. If it did not happen 25 years ago, it ain't happening now. Why? Vermont Environmental Regs. I believe that development above 2,000 feet is really restricted. I think that there was talk about "expanding" Allyn's a while back. I know that they did upgrade it at some point after Win took over.

It is a good idea of course, but the State will not allow it.

 

[thetrailboss]

Dudes, like Win must have made serious bucks on SB. Bought for $6m and sold for $60+m, or maybe more. All you guys talking bout how his tenure is so so wonderful. Well, sb has seen very modest improvements over the many years, but someone walked away with tens of mils. It ain't you, skiers, that benefited from Saint Win.

You know what they say about the ski resort industry..."how do you make a small fortune? By investing a large one." I highly doubt that it is as simple as you claim nor the payout is as large as you think. It is surprising how many people in Vermont just assume that the ski areas have tons of money. That is wrong. Capital intensive business with risky returns.

And I will add that going on now 18+ years this ownership group has offered the most stability to the area. That is worth its weight in gold.

 

[MorningWoods]

You know what they say about the ski resort industry..."how do you make a small fortune? By investing a large one." I highly doubt that it is as simple as you claim nor the payout is as large as you think. It is surprising how many people in Vermont just assume that the ski areas have tons of money. That is wrong. Capital intensive business with risky returns.

And I will add that going on now 18+ years this ownership group has offered the most stability to the area. That is worth its weight in gold.

Count me as one that is satisfied as well. I would agree with many on here that an additional lodge is needed to help spread out that lunch crowd. A new sharc for better off mountain activities for guests and non ski days. I wouldn’t like to see anything that increases uphill capacity at Lincoln peak. Would prefer investment in Mt Ellen both the planned but never executed terrain expansion and facility enhancements, make it a destination not an overflow lot. That will go a long way towards addressing crowding.


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