The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Smellytele]

When I think of old school New England trails color doesn’t come into it. Cut a polecat ( green) cut an upper Cannon or Ravine (blue) or cut a chin clip (black). Twists and turns is what defines it. Don’t cut a profile or an Okemo/newer Sunday river trail - wide straight down the hill trail.


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[cdskier]

I will say this. Yes he is right in a general scene. There are more beginner-intermediate skiers at Sugarbush then there are experts. These people may want to see more trails and marked areas than there are now. Problem is the areas that they put the new trails will most likely be were we already ski. I don't care If I am a minority, I don't want to see good areas get wiped out because we have to cater to people. Call me selfish.

I don't think you're as much of a minority as you think you are. Even with the kids there are a significant number of them that are skiing areas like CR and even unmarked woods as part of the various Blazer programs. Yes, there are more beginner-intermediate skiers than experts...but that's going to be the case almost anywhere. The distribution between the two at Sugarbush is not nearly as wide of a gap as at other areas though. I think that's the point some people are trying to make (and my argument at least).

Over 50% of terrain (even including the marked glades) already serves the beginner-intermediate market. If you include only actual trails and exclude marked glades, that number rises to nearly 70%. That's plenty of terrain for that segment of users even if they're a bit of a majority. There's no need to cater more to that market. There are plenty of other mountains that already do that. Sugarbush also already has a reputation as a more "hardcore" mountain than some other resorts. They should continue to stick to that market because it is what sets them apart from other mountains and makes them attractive to many of the people that call SB home. And I think in general you're going to actually see the demand for what SB offers continue to increase. Just look at how much more popular the woods are now compared to years ago. I don't think that is some fad that is going to die off any time soon.

Of course this is largely all irrelevant anyway. There's not going to be any expansions any point soon period. Lots of other priorities that would have to be addressed first.

 

[Boxtop Willie]

For a day that had the potential to be a complete washout, it was pretty good. Wind was roaring, lots on windhold, but no crowds and silky soft snow. Big, carved turns down Snowball; Spring Fling fantastic. A little moisture in the morning, quick immature snow event around 1 (luckily in having lunch) and then a few peeks of sun. I'm glad I went out. Tomorrow looks to be great. And then Monday?????

 

[Orca]

90% of new trails cut in the Northeast in the past 30 years have been a massive disappointment. Too wide, too void of character and always with snowmaking. Why not cut a new Rumble or Goat type trail? That's what I'd like to see more of. A return to old school, classic New England trail design.

Amen, brother.

I don't buy that the fraction of expert skiers is 5%. Castlerock always has a long line when it is open. Heck, people hike there from LP when the lift isn't running. I see tons of folks in the woods, including plenty of kids. Try to catch a bus from the Slidebrook outlet and you may have to wait a few busses because they are filling up. There is demand out there for this type of skiing, and the market is under-served. Sugarbush is well positioned to attract more of that cohort. And those people, like me, are pretty hard core and reliable sources of revenue.

 

[cdskier]

Amen, brother.

I don't buy that the fraction of expert skiers is 5%. Castlerock always has a long line when it is open. Heck, people hike there from LP when the lift isn't running. I see tons of folks in the woods, including plenty of kids. Try to catch a bus from the Slidebrook outlet and you may have to wait a few busses because they are filling up. There is demand out there for this type of skiing, and the market is under-served. Sugarbush is well positioned to attract more of that cohort. And those people, like me, are pretty hard core and reliable sources of revenue.

You said what I wanted to say in far fewer words and much more effectively!

 

[ducky]

Amen, brother.

I don't buy that the fraction of expert skiers is 5%. Castlerock always has a long line when it is open. Heck, people hike there from LP when the lift isn't running. I see tons of folks in the woods, including plenty of kids. Try to catch a bus from the Slidebrook outlet and you may have to wait a few busses because they are filling up. There is demand out there for this type of skiing, and the market is under-served. Sugarbush is well positioned to attract more of that cohort. And those people, like me, are pretty hard core and reliable sources of revenue.

Totally agree and well said ..however the counterpoint is that this is called Mad River Glen and it is just 3 miles away and they struggle to break even each year. It's a magical place with incredible and natural winding terrain. The even have snowmaking on major trails, and grooming on some, and have a blue/green area served by the Double, even a race hill. Some of the best tree skiing in Vermont.

 

[mikec142]

Skied 24-26 at Lincoln Peak. Pretty fun skiing overall, but SB could use a good storm. Seems like the warmth on the 23rd hurt. Twist and Moonshine took some wax off my skis as did Paradise. Organgrinder had the guns on it most of the time and it was a ton of fun, but I came out looking like the abominable snowman.

I've never done the hike from Paradise to Castlerock so my two teenagers and I decided to try it. I vaguely recall one of you fine folk here saying it was a 15-20 minute hike. To be frank, that ain't so. Took us about 35 minutes with a picture stop or two. We were all pretty wrecked afterwards. The top of Castlerock Run was really fun, but from the junction of Lower Castlerock Run/Cotillion on down it was pretty pretty bad, especially the run out back to the base. Very happy we checked this experience off the list, but unless it's a pow day and the CR lift isn't running, I'm going to find other things to ski and wait until the lift is running. Snowball/Spring Fling, Jester were in solid shape. Sleeper was solid too. Especially after the sun hit it a bit.

Plan was to ski today as well and hop in the car to head home right from the mountain, but the weather and the family overruled me and we had a leisurely morning in Burlington and headed back to NJ.

Weather looks pretty good, so I'm planning to head back up next weekend.

Last season, I overbought quad packs and ended up struggling to use them all. So this season I bought a bit less. But between me and my kids, we've already used the vast majority of the days. Gonna have to be strategic about my plans to keep the rest of the season's ticket costs at a reasonable level. Unless any of you guys want to sell a few days...

 

[deadheadskier]

When I think of old school New England trails color doesn’t come into it. Cut a polecat ( green) cut an upper Cannon or Ravine (blue) or cut a chin clip (black). Twists and turns is what defines it. Don’t cut a profile or an Okemo/newer Sunday river trail - wide straight down the hill trail.


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I referenced Rumble and Goat, but you are right in that "classic" New England trails don't have to be for experts only.

Take Wildcat. I'm content if Wildcat never changes, but Ive often said I'd be open to two things. Some inbounds upper mountain glades and another Polecat type trail going out past Upper Wildcat that connects with Wild Kitten down below. How cool would that be?



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[WWF-VT]

Skied 24-26 at Lincoln Peak. Pretty fun skiing overall, but SB could use a good storm. Seems like the warmth on the 23rd hurt. Twist and Moonshine took some wax off my skis as did Paradise. Organgrinder had the guns on it most of the time and it was a ton of fun, but I came out looking like the abominable snowman.

I've never done the hike from Paradise to Castlerock so my two teenagers and I decided to try it. I vaguely recall one of you fine folk here saying it was a 15-20 minute hike. To be frank, that ain't so. Took us about 35 minutes with a picture stop or two. We were all pretty wrecked afterwards. The top of Castlerock Run was really fun, but from the junction of Lower Castlerock Run/Cotillion on down it was pretty pretty bad, especially the run out back to the base. Very happy we checked this experience off the list, but unless it's a pow day and the CR lift isn't running, I'm going to find other things to ski and wait until the lift is running.

Twist, Moonshine and Paradise should have been enough to tell you that the trek to Castlerock wasn't worth the effort.

 

[cdskier]

I've never done the hike from Paradise to Castlerock so my two teenagers and I decided to try it. I vaguely recall one of you fine folk here saying it was a 15-20 minute hike. To be frank, that ain't so. Took us about 35 minutes with a picture stop or two.

Many people say it is around 15 minutes or so. Probably takes me about 20-25 (typically with a photo stop at The Church). And I consider myself slow as people are always passing me (one of the big reasons I hate doing it on a weekend and prefer to do it midweek when no one is around so I'm not in anyone's way on the LT). It definitely is a workout though. I still think it can be worth it when conditions are right.

 

[raisingarizona]

I don't see a point being reached where a trail like Rumble doesn't open at least 30 days a season. If it does get to that point, the people who want to ski that type of terrain aren't going to say, "screw it. widen it and put in snowmaking and grooming on it."

Just look at Tramline at Cannon. It probably opens less than 30 days a season on average. I don't think you'll find many people suggesting they should line it with dynamite, flatten it and put in snowmaking. They've already got Profile or Avalanche to ski that type of experience. You simply just have to be patient and opportunistic to experience it for what it is.

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The point that you completely miss here though is at what point does the costs to maintain natural trails and in the castle rock example, a whole pod and lift outweigh its actual value. If you are spending x amount of dollars every year to get an average of 30 days a season is it worth it?

 

[Orca]

The point that you completely miss here though is at what point does the costs to maintain natural trails and in the castle rock example, a whole pod and lift outweigh its actual value. If you are spending x amount of dollars every year to get an average of 30 days a season is it worth it?

I don't think your "outweigh its actual value" can be easily figured. It is very hard to put a revenue valuation on a portion of a ski area. I don't think it can be readily or reliably computed. For instance, how much is Sugarbush diminished when North Lynx isn't running, and specifically how much revenue is lost on a given day by it not running? Maybe almost nothing is lost, so why ever run it at all? I could argue that the incremental value of any single trail is, in fact, zero. It is the whole offering that seems to matter.

 

[Keelhauled]

I don't think your "outweigh its actual value" can be easily figured. It is very hard to put a revenue valuation on a portion of a ski area. I don't think it can be readily or reliably computed.

I would think that the RFID scanners will help them to quantify that a bit. If you have a significant chunk of skiers at one lift--particularly if those skiers aren't on the mountain when that lift isn't running--then you can probably say that a particular pod is worth x amount of revenue. On the other hand, if skier traffic is dispersed among terrain, then maybe you don't push to open a particular pod if those people are on the mountain already anyway. You could probably try to correlate skier traffic to your grooming plan later in the season too, if you see a jump in traffic when you groom a particular trail then maybe you make it more regular.

Now that I think about it, it seems that long range RFID scanners already exist. I imagine they are more expensive than short range ones, but I wonder if we will see ski areas install them in certain areas to get an even closer look at traffic now that the cards are in use already.

 

[cdskier]

I would think that the RFID scanners will help them to quantify that a bit. If you have a significant chunk of skiers at one lift--particularly if those skiers aren't on the mountain when that lift isn't running--then you can probably say that a particular pod is worth x amount of revenue. On the other hand, if skier traffic is dispersed among terrain, then maybe you don't push to open a particular pod if those people are on the mountain already anyway. You could probably try to correlate skier traffic to your grooming plan later in the season too, if you see a jump in traffic when you groom a particular trail then maybe you make it more regular.

Now that I think about it, it seems that long range RFID scanners already exist. I imagine they are more expensive than short range ones, but I wonder if we will see ski areas install them in certain areas to get an even closer look at traffic now that the cards are in use already.

RFID will give them more data once fully deployed, sure. But at the same time look at a lift like CR that is intentionally a low capacity lift. When that lift is open and conditions are good, demand often far outweighs supply. RFID would just tell you that you have 1000 pph using it or whatever the capacity is. It wouldn't tell you that you had another 1000 pph that went elsewhere because they didn't feel like standing in line at CR, etc. I'm a good example of that. I love CR, but hate lines. I'd rather go ski the natural runs on HG or Bravo or VH or even over at ME before I stand too much in line at CR. I don't ski CR anywhere near as much as I'd like to simply because I'd rather actually ski than wait in line.

 

[Greg]

Amen, brother.

I don't buy that the fraction of expert skiers is 5%. Castlerock always has a long line when it is open. Heck, people hike there from LP when the lift isn't running. I see tons of folks in the woods, including plenty of kids. Try to catch a bus from the Slidebrook outlet and you may have to wait a few busses because they are filling up. There is demand out there for this type of skiing, and the market is under-served. Sugarbush is well positioned to attract more of that cohort. And those people, like me, are pretty hard core and reliable sources of revenue.

Agreed. And you don't have to be an "expert" to ski Castlerock or a lot of the more advanced natural terrain at SB. My 13 year old daughter is a good example. She's a solid skier who I would rate a higher intermediate but loves technical, natural trails and tree skiing (admittedly might be a result of some dad brainwashing over the years, but....)

With that said, I don't see any mountain adding CR type skiing, as much as I would love to see that. I also don't think SB *needs* more of it anyway. I just hope they don't ever convert any existing classic trails to boring groomers covered in snowmaking. I also applaud SB's willingness to open with even thin cover. Not sure if it was a play to get the holiday week trail count up, but when I was there last weekend, I appreciated having the option to ski the nattys despite beating up a brand new pair of skis! :lol:

 

[Hawk]

my wife and I have done castlerock a few time this week. My average time is about 20 minutes but I do not stop and I am in pretty good shape. As for being worth it, it totally was every time. I would add that the majority of people go down castelrock run so it gets beat up. Middle Earth was way better. I think the wind continuously blew in a way that brought snow out of the woods so there seemed to be more over there.

In general, I felt that with all the cold we had over the last two weeks, there should have been more snow blown. Not sure what happened there but the expansion of trails last week and the week before was not that progressive. Just my observation.

 

[Orca]

In general, I felt that with all the cold we had over the last two weeks, there should have been more snow blown. Not sure what happened there but the expansion of trails last week and the week before was not that progressive. Just my observation.

It is an unfortunate irony that the deep cold temperatures that are best for blowing snow -- by best I mean most efficient production of quantity with the driest quality -- are accompanied by power restrictions that limit snowmaking operations. It is a situation that plain old sucks.

 

[WinS]

It is an unfortunate irony that the deep cold temperatures that are best for blowing snow -- by best I mean most efficient production of quantity with the driest quality -- are accompanied by power restrictions that limit snowmaking operations. It is a situation that plain old sucks.

Yes, that is a problem. Also we you power down and start up you have the greatest risk of a rupture in a pipe and/or a valve. We id lose at least 18 hours of good production time because of the curtailment and a rupture which is very frustrating. Would have liked to have been further along on either Ripcord or the North Lynx area before it warmed up again. You can see that we are set-up to go in both areas once the temperatures come down.

 

[skimagic]

Yes, that is a problem. Also we you power down and start up you have the greatest risk of a rupture in a pipe and/or a valve. We id lose at least 18 hours of good production time because of the curtailment...

Why are there power restrictions? Is this a recent development due to the closure of the nuclear power plant in Vernon Vermont, or an ongoing problem for years?

 

[HowieT2]

Why are there power restrictions? Is this a recent development due to the closure of the nuclear power plant in Vernon Vermont, or an ongoing problem for years?

my recollection is they have had these power curtailments for as long as I can remember.

a bit firm out there today, except off gatehouse. Sleeper was like spring conditions. Forecast looking good.