The "Sugarbush Thread"

[gostan]

well said.
And honestly, I never have trouble getting a seat for lunch in the gatehouse on Saturdays, but then again, I eat at 11:30, so I can be back out at noon.

On the mountain early in the morning and early to lunch makes the busy Saturday's much easier to deal with.

to compare Killington and Sugarbush is simply ridiculous. It is like comparing NYC with Boston. Personally, I would prefer to ski Boston .....I mean Sugarbush any weekend. Killington on a weekend is simply a zoo. always has been and always will be.

 

[Smellytele]

​Really couldn't give a rats ass what you think either.

Then why respond with a "I know you are but what am I" response? Might as well just respond with a typical K skier response of "Idiot" or "moron".
I as well love skiing at both places - not that you care.

 

[Newpylong]

To each his own but I would give a nut to be able to ski Sugarbush everyday. I do like Killington a lot and since i only live an hour away I am there often. But the Bush is a special place that is tough to beat.

Comparing aside, ASC actually left Sugarbush with an amazing snowmaking system. Lincoln had very little snowmaking prior to '94. Otten put in the pond and covered nearly every trail with pipe outside of Castle rock. They have had to do very little outside of new guns and limited pipe replacement.

ASC made one stupid decision with the Slug and GMX but other than that the Bush faired well compared to their other "ventures." Killington had a more uphill battle out of the ASC doldrums and has made substantial investments.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Then why respond with a "I know you are but what am I" response? Might as well just respond with a typical K skier response of "Idiot" or "moron".
I as well love skiing at both places - not that you care.

He didn't have a problem going there when the lift ticket was 7.50. Cheap old man.

 

[dlague]

Too much resort hating going on I enjoy Sugarbush and never seem to have any issues there and have no complaints. Obviously we are in a skiing society that expects visible change or change period. I think that sucks!

The whole Killington, Sugarbush, Jay Peak, Sunday River, Stowe, Olemo, Sugarloaf battles that take place in these threads are ridiculous - each resort has there own character, lines, terrain, etc..

Can't we all just get along?


.......

 

[Smellytele]

Too much resort hating going on I enjoy Sugarbush and never seem to have any issues there and have no complaints. Obviously we are in a skiing society that expects visible change or change period. I think that sucks!

The whole Killington, Sugarbush, Jay Peak, Sunday River, Stowe, Olemo, Sugarloaf battles that take place in these threads are ridiculous - each resort has there own character, lines, terrain, etc..

Can't we all just get along?


.......

Rainbows and unicorns! please let it snow soon or at least have some snow making soon.

 

[steamboat1]

He didn't have a problem going there when the lift ticket was 7.50. Cheap old man.

Ticket was $6.50, $7.50 would have been over the top.

 

[thetrailboss]

Too much resort hating going on I enjoy Sugarbush and never seem to have any issues there and have no complaints. Obviously we are in a skiing society that expects visible change or change period. I think that sucks!

The whole Killington, Sugarbush, Jay Peak, Sunday River, Stowe, Olemo, Sugarloaf battles that take place in these threads are ridiculous - each resort has there own character, lines, terrain, etc..

Can't we all just get along?


.......

In 10 years here and on our sister site, SkiMRV.com this is typical for the Sugarbush thread. I see some things don't change. Nothing wrong with a good debate.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

What were the upgrades besides the non skiing ones?

Not much after owning the place for over a decade. Any deferred maintenance issues or lack of snowmaking improvements sit's squarely on the back of present ownership. We're not still going to blame ASC are we? Don't get me wrong I love Sugarbush but that has more to do with it's natural attributes than anything Win has done.

Neither of you are apparently reading closely in this thread. I guess you consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings and new snowmaking infrastructure as "non-skiing"?

Didn't need to be. The new lodge, while attractive, was very poorly designed. Why spend all that money only to still have the same issue you had before?

On this, we are COMPLETELY aligned. You CANNOT argue that they haven't invested in on-mountain improvements. Given the size of their skier visits, they inarguably have, and have done so in a sustainable manner at a resort that habitually lost money and previously went through new ownership groups like I go through toilet paper.

You can, however, ABSOLUTELY take issue with how effectively they've spent that money. I was never a fan of the new GH lodge layout and it was obvious it would be inadequate from the moment it opened.

 

[Smellytele]

Neither of you are apparently reading closely in this thread. I guess you consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings and new snowmaking infrastructure as "non-skiing"?

I do consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings as non-skiing. While snowmaking is skiing related but from what others said in this thread is that snowmaking infrastructure was just repaired not really new. So I was just wondering if any new lifts, trails or glades were added.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Originally Posted by deadheadskier


Lifts - Advantage Sugarbush - they've put in two new lifts to Killington's 1. In fact, Killington took out a lift. So, call it 2 - 0. After next season it may very well be 3 to 0 with the new Valley House lift.
K may very well add two lifts next year (South Ridge & Snowdon)

And unicorns may very well come flying out of my rear end too. SB has commenced the permitting process and is already spending money on design work. Where's K on that front?


Snowmaking - both places have had to deal with ASC neglect. Sugarbush never had much of a system to begin with, but Killington at least had the best foundation of a system in the east installed by Pres Smith. Given where they've both come from and where they stand today, I'd call it a tie. Killington is as good as they've always been and Sugarbush is better than they've ever.
How many new guns did Sugarbush buy this year? Killington 400

The answer to that would be 351, for a resort with half the terrain and half the skier visits as Killington. Thanks for playing.

Day lodge seating - crap on Gatehouse all you want, but there are more seats in there than the new Peak Lodge. You've also got Timbers Restaurant and Castlerock pub, though I will admit I'm not a huge fan of CRP. Killington lost the entire Mahogany Ridge bar area. The U-bars are nice when there is good weather, but it doesn't make for getting a seat in the KBL easier during much of the season. So, effectively, Sugarbush has expanded their dining options more than Killington. And the food at the Gatehouse is far and away better in quality and price than that at KBL and pretty much all of Killington's base lodges, so don't waste your time and go there.
Guess you forgot about Snowshed, Ramshead, Bear, & Skyeship base lodges. Not to mention the Sunrise Cafe, Yurt & Anna's Panata all which serve food on mountain. And yes the daily special in KBL can be quite good. Peak Lodge even better

LOLZ. I wasn't aware that POWDR had made the investments to construct those lodges. I guess I must have been tripping on acid with all my memories of eating at those same locations in the 30 plus years I've skied at K.

As has been mentioned, Sugarbush has added numerous skier services buildings to improve that part of the experience. And K has added what in this area?
See the 5 base areas mentioned above.

See above indeed.

As a side note, why do you even care about getting a seat for lunch on busy weekends and holidays? You're the dude who brags of being retired all the time and only skiing midweek.
Sorry that makes you jealous. Maybe someday you'll get there too. I have my doubt's though.

Wow - in the annals of pathetic, passive-aggressive responses, this takes the cake. Given how you've acquitted yourself on this site and others, there isn't much in your life to be jealous of. You can't take the money with you, but your idiocy lives on for the ages. Congratulations on such an important legacy.

Moving on. Sugarbush has started a modest lodging village for themselves. Slowly but surely adding lodging and services year by year. The Killington Village has been talked about for decades and there are still only hard hats on the crickets. All one needs to do is look at the overall Real Estate picture in the two areas to see which area has improved, and which has not. Which place has seen a better appreciation in RE values over the last ten years? Hint: not Killington.
You can't even compare the availability of lodging between the two. What has Sugarbush added? Private residences. That does the average Joe Blow absolutely no good

And what "average Joe" accommodations has K built? Do tell. We'll wait while you finish your research. Were you expecting public residences, whatever that may be? For the record, every single unit SB has built gets thrown into the master rental pool when not being used - these aren't single family McMansions that lie empty 90% of the year.


And all this done by a modest multi-millionaire working diligently to make his mountain and community better where as Killington has a Forbes 400 Billionaire backing it. Sugarbush is a family owned and operated ski resort. Name another family owned and operated ski resort in New England who has done as much as Win has.......I'm all ears.
With EB-5 money

EB-5 money has been part of the capital structure but the vast majority of investment has come out of Win's pocket. Even so, for the EB-5 program, so long as they are following the law, and doing right by their investors, why should you care? On a capital $/skier visits basis, SB has invested so much more over the last decade it's not even funny.

So, yeah, please, for all of us. You can shut up now about your issues with Sugarbush. Here are all the people who care:

ooops......forget the K stairwell. Add a couple of tenths of a point to K's score for that.

 

[HowieT2]

Neither of you are apparently reading closely in this thread. I guess you consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings and new snowmaking infrastructure as "non-skiing"?


On this, we are COMPLETELY aligned. You CANNOT argue that they haven't invested in on-mountain improvements. Given the size of their skier visits, they inarguably have, and have done so in a sustainable manner at a resort that habitually lost money and previously went through new ownership groups like I go through toilet paper.

You can, however, ABSOLUTELY take issue with how effectively they've spent that money. I was never a fan of the new GH lodge layout and it was obvious it would be inadequate from the moment it opened.

I think the GH lodge was built when the plan was to build another skier services building with additional cafeteria/bar space. That plan changed aftre the gatehouse was finished, and the schoolhouse and farmhouse were built instead, without any additional cafeteria/bar space. so the problem may not have been with the design of the gatehouse, but the subsequent failure to add more capacity. either way, while it needs to be addressed, having too much demand is a good problem to have. and really its only an issue at peak lunch hour on saturdays. they do need more bar space too.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I think the GH lodge was built when the plan was to build another skier services building with additional cafeteria/bar space. That plan changed aftre the gatehouse was finished, and the schoolhouse and farmhouse were built instead, without any additional cafeteria/bar space. so the problem may not have been with the design of the gatehouse, but the subsequent failure to add more capacity. either way, while it needs to be addressed, having too much demand is a good problem to have. and really its only an issue at peak lunch hour on saturdays. they do need more bar space too.

Yup. Hard to know what the driver was, though I will note that at the time GH lodge was built, the plan to to also tear down VH lodge and bring the base of a new VH chair down to the base (I still have the renderings!). As such, they are at least guilty of some poor planning for the transition period, if not beyond. The only reason they can come close to accommodating the peak crowds they have today, even with the VH lodge remaining open, is b/c they've had to make extensive follow-on investments in GH to shoehorn more people into the CR Pub and those side rooms on the main level. The insistence on individual seats (likely to facilitate off-season events) was also off-base - bench seats accommodate more people.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I do consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings as non-skiing. While snowmaking is skiing related but from what others said in this thread is that snowmaking infrastructure was just repaired not really new. So I was just wondering if any new lifts, trails or glades were added.

Wow. Tough crowd. So if I get this straight, you think ski areas should involve only a parking lot, lifts and trails? Whatever the case, suffice to say your POV is in the minority.

Regardless, new lifts:

- CR double
- Green Mtn Express quad
- Valley House quad (for 2015-2016) in planning/permitting

New snowmaking:

- Entirely new fleet of snowmaking guns, with 351 new guns this year alone (over and above several hundred in the last five years)
- New main feeder pipe from snowmaking pond
- Unexpected re-digging of snowmaking pond after Irene destroyed it
- New valves, pipes and pumps all over the mtn

New terrain
- Over 100 acres of new gladed terrain at Mt Ellen
- Some acreage expansion of glades at LP, but not sure of the amount

Worth noting that the majority of their terrain is on USFS land - actually pretty rare for New England ski areas and makes on-mtn expansion all the more onerous.

 

[Smellytele]

Wow. Tough crowd. So if I get this straight, you think ski areas should involve only a parking lot, lifts and trails? Whatever the case, suffice to say your POV is in the minority.

Regardless, new lifts:

- CR double
- Green Mtn Express quad
- Valley House quad (for 2015-2016) in planning/permitting

New snowmaking:

- Entirely new fleet of snowmaking guns, with 351 new guns this year alone (over and above several hundred in the last five years)
- New main feeder pipe from snowmaking pond
- Unexpected re-digging of snowmaking pond after Irene destroyed it
- New valves, pipes and pumps all over the mtn

New terrain
- Over 100 acres of new gladed terrain at Mt Ellen
- Some acreage expansion of glades at LP, but not sure of the amount

Worth noting that the majority of their terrain is on USFS land - actually pretty rare for New England ski areas and makes on-mtn expansion all the more onerous.

Thanks I was just wondering as I didn't know what was added and before I originally asked it was just angry people being angry without facts

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Thanks I was just wondering as I didn't know what was added and before I originally asked it was just angry people being angry without facts

Ha. Yeah, there's a lot of that around here.

 

[ThinkSnow]

they do need more bar space too.

Who designed the bar anyway? There could actually be much more space in that room if the bar ran flat along the entire back wall (by the kitchen window) instead of taking up a third of the space as it now does. Just gotta leave a gap for waitresses/food service.

 

[thetrailboss]

So the BIG question is when will Sugarbush open this season? Weekend before Thanksgiving? Later?

 

[slatham]

Regardless of the date - its obviously rather weather dependent - I predict they will be more aggressive in getting open than in the past. just a feeling.....

 

[chuckstah]

So the BIG question is when will Sugarbush open this season? Weekend before Thanksgiving? Later?

I received an email today saying it is less than 35 days til opening, so probably Friday, November 21st or so.