The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Newpylong]

A couple comments:

Has Sugarbush run into capacity issues with the 18" pipe from the Mad River up to the base? Granted velocity is usually lower discharging from transfer pumps vs the high pressure distribution pumps, that pipe should still be able to pass >5,000 GPM, which is beyond Lincoln's pumping capacity.

A former night supervisor there mentioned to me there was an injury to a snowmaker on Exterminator a while back and the mountain put the kibosh on making snow there from that point forward. So it doesn't surprise me to hear the line is disconnected. Still odd, there are more dangerous locations to be making snow on that mountain IMO.

As far as capital improvements to gain efficiency, HKD offers a boom solution (of varying lengths) which solves the issue of close clearances where land guns typically have to be used. Where labor has become such a concern, far more efficient than lugging rats or Snow Logics around. Does not solve the issue of expanding reach though, no easy solution there other than putting pipe on both sides of the trail (then having to wait for friendly wind), or using the land guns. Or fans if there are no obstructions.

As far as not making snow in sub zero temps, yes the wet bulb is tempting but there gets to be a point where the risk of freezing equipment (and the crews fight this all night) and personal injury outweigh the benefits. Several mountains did not make snow at all over both negative degree evenings this week for this reason.

 

[STREETSKIER]

I think this uphill travel is a bunch of bullshit
You should be required to have a valid pass
These skinning dorks are annoying
One reason it’s popular is there s nowhere to skin but a resort , backcountry ha sure pal take your stuff somewhere real. Thanks enjoy your day

 

[WinS]

A couple comments:

Has Sugarbush run into capacity issues with the 18" pipe from the Mad River up to the base? Granted velocity is usually lower discharging from transfer pumps vs the high pressure distribution pumps, that pipe should still be able to pass >5,000 GPM, which is beyond Lincoln's pumping capacity.

A former night supervisor there mentioned to me there was an injury to a snowmaker on Exterminator a while back and the mountain put the kibosh on making snow there from that point forward. So it doesn't surprise me to hear the line is disconnected. Still odd, there are more dangerous locations to be making snow on that mountain IMO.

As far as capital improvements to gain efficiency, HKD offers a boom solution (of varying lengths) which solves the issue of close clearances where land guns typically have to be used. Where labor has become such a concern, far more efficient than lugging rats or Snow Logics around. Does not solve the issue of expanding reach though, no easy solution there other than putting pipe on both sides of the trail (then having to wait for friendly wind), or using the land guns.

As far as not making snow in sub zero temps, yes the wet bulb is tempting but there gets to be a point where the risk of freezing equipment (and the crews fight this all night) and personal injury outweigh the benefits. Several mountains did not make snow at all over both negative degree evenings this week for this reason.

The issue with the 18” pipe is you can only get so much volume through it so that is why the max is around 4,500 GMP. Sugarbush should be planning to get to 7,000,or more. It will require more pump capacity too but that is a lesser expense than the pipe and an uphill pond.

A Snowmaker was injured a number of years ago but that was not the reason for removing snowmaking from Exterminator. ME has a grandfathered water withdrawal permit that will not allow an expansion of snowmaking. This prior capacity on Exterminator could one day we moved to day to day a trail like Walt’s. That would allow for beginner and intermediate skiers to use that pod more.

You are spot on about the reason one might not make snow in really frigid conditions. Running towers on a trail like Cruiser is a very different risk than land guns on Waterfall and Hot Shot.

Another subject. Day 45 and today was my best for far. Birch and Sunrise were superbly groomed. Very soft. Enjoyed Morning Star and a groomed Murphy‘s too, but what made the day were turns down Stein‘s. The snow was across the trail and very dry. It was shut down after 11:30am and glad that happened as the temps were rising and guns would have gotten wet. Today Killington had the most trails open in VT with 70. Sugarbush was second with 69 (Paradise and Stein‘s were opened after the morning snow report came out). I think that speaks to what the Snowmakers have been doing in really challenging conditions this year.

 

[jaybird]

Sigi woulda loved Stein's today
Though Stein woulda skipped Sigi's.

Nice crevasse

 

[Kingslug20]

SB was great today..Steins was the best.

 

[Lotso]

The issue with the 18” pipe is you can only get so much volume through it so that is why the max is around 4,500 GMP. Sugarbush should be planning to get to 7,000,or more. It will require more pump capacity too but that is a lesser expense than the pipe and an uphill pond.

A Snowmaker was injured a number of years ago but that was not the reason for removing snowmaking from Exterminator. ME has a grandfathered water withdrawal permit that will not allow an expansion of snowmaking. This prior capacity on Exterminator could one day we moved to day to day a trail like Walt’s. That would allow for beginner and intermediate skiers to use that pod more.

You are spot on about the reason one might not make snow in really frigid conditions. Running towers on a trail like Cruiser is a very different risk than land guns on Waterfall and Hot Shot.

Another subject. Day 45 and today was my best for far. Birch and Sunrise were superbly groomed. Very soft. Enjoyed Morning Star and a groomed Murphy‘s too, but what made the day were turns down Stein‘s. The snow was across the trail and very dry. It was shut down after 11:30am and glad that happened as the temps were rising and guns would have gotten wet. Today Killington had the most trails open in VT with 70. Sugarbush was second with 69 (Paradise and Stein‘s were opened after the morning snow report came out). I think that speaks to what the Snowmakers have been doing in really challenging conditions this year.

This prior capacity on Exterminator could one day we moved to day to day a trail like Walt’s. That would allow for beginner and intermediate skiers to use that pod more.

Is this is the plan in the near future? Would be great

 

[cdskier]

This prior capacity on Exterminator could one day we moved to day to day a trail like Walt’s. That would allow for beginner and intermediate skiers to use that pod more.

Is this is the plan in the near future? Would be great

Hopefully not...Walts is an awesome introduction to natural snow/terrain skiing.

We've had this debate in the past (maybe a year or 2 ago in this forum). Quite a few people were firmly in the "no snowmaking on Walts" camp.

 

[Lotso]

Hopefully not...Walts is an awesome introduction to natural snow/terrain skiing.

We've had this debate in the past (maybe a year or 2 ago in this forum). Quite a few people were firmly in the "no snowmaking on Walts" camp.

I wasn't on that debate, but my 2 cents says it could then be open more than it is now with no snowmaking, given its exposure and the water bars. But plenty of green circle terrain at ME, I guess

 

[Tin Woodsman]

The issue with the 18” pipe is you can only get so much volume through it so that is why the max is around 4,500 GMP. Sugarbush should be planning to get to 7,000,or more. It will require more pump capacity too but that is a lesser expense than the pipe and an uphill pond.

Respectfully, couldn't this have been addressed in part when you guys replaced the main line from the pond up to the mountain 5-6 years back? I thought it strange at the time that the plan was to use the same diameter pipe instead of increasing it to support future needs, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding where the bottleneck is.

 

[cdskier]

So I see some changes on the snow report page on the website...

Windchill value is gone (which as Johnny B pointed out was useless anyway as it wasn't accurate)
Font/text size on the snow report text is larger/easier to read plus it is broken into paragraphs AND they now have links in the verbiage (specifically to the Uphill policy and pass). Of course you still have to click "read more" to see the full text and it still opens an annoying popup.
Overall snowmaking on/off icon is gone (not sure I see the value in getting rid of that one...)
Font being larger also means some stuff is now weirdly formatted...aka:


At least there's some progress/attempts at changes being done though...

 

[djd66]

So I see some changes on the snow report page on the website...

Windchill value is gone (which as Johnny B pointed out was useless anyway as it wasn't accurate)
Font/text size on the snow report text is larger/easier to read plus it is broken into paragraphs AND they now have links in the verbiage (specifically to the Uphill policy and pass). Of course you still have to click "read more" to see the full text and it still opens an annoying popup.
Overall snowmaking on/off icon is gone (not sure I see the value in getting rid of that one...)
Font being larger also means some stuff is now weirdly formatted...aka:
View attachment 52675

At least there's some progress/attempts at changes being done though...

They should also get rid of all the woods trails and just have them in a section of their own. Way too much noise with those in the trail report and the status is always NOT PATROLLED. And if the status will always be NOT PATROLLED, why even list them on a trail report, when there is nothing to report?

 

[Lotso]

They should also get rid of all the woods trails and just have them in a section of their own. Way too much noise with those in the trail report and the status is always NOT PATROLLED. And if the status will always be NOT PATROLLED, why even list them on a trail report, when there is nothing to report?

Agreed. Silly to have them in there.

 

[WinS]

Respectfully, couldn't this have been addressed in part when you guys replaced the main line from the pond up to the mountain 5-6 years back? I thought it strange at the time that the plan was to use the same diameter pipe instead of increasing it to support future needs, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding where the bottleneck is.

Short answer - maybe but probably not. We had a major break just below Alpine Options and some other minor leaks. This was old used pipe purchased by ASC in Mexico. Our concern was another break that could have been even more severe and stopped snowmaking completely. At time the time the urgency was to fix what we had Immediately. We replaced the pipe from the pond to Alpine Options. This portion is where the highest pressure occurs and thus the most vulnerable. Subsequently, we began thinking of longer term improvements to address a couple of things. One is the vulnerability of having a snowmaking pond in a flood zone. It was breached once in July when ASC owned Sugarbush and again in August of 2011 when Irene hit, it cost us $1million to repair (uninsured) and was finished just prior to November. We also discovered that the original weir that is put in each fall to allow withdrawal from The Mad River into the pond was bring compromised by winter ice flows. We have repaired it once but the risk of climate change impact has been growing. Before I sold we we’re putting together a long-term plan to replace the existing weir with a bladder one that would be deflated after snowmaking and inflated in the fall. It could also be deflated if there were ice jams. Secondly, for insurance if the pond is breached again, we wanted to build a second reservoir out of the flood zone. So far, the improvement we made to the pond in 2011 have held up but I always lost sleep when the River came up. The most logical spot for a second pond was likely the area (old tennis courts) across from the Sugarbush Inn. Then we thought about how to get more snowmaking capacity. The initial thinking was using the existing pipe fill the pond as well continuing up for snowmaking and putting in a new parallel pipe from the new pond up to the mountain or just putting in a new 36” pipe from the new pond up. We did have an initial preliminary meeting in 2019 with the community to outline this idea. Then Covid hit. I think this is still the long-term idea, but it will require engineering to see what’s viable, permitting after that and a lot of capital. I believe the planning for the new weir is in process, but I have not asked about the status of the rest of this preliminary plan so don’t want to speculate.

 

[WinS]

So I see some changes on the snow report page on the website...

Windchill value is gone (which as Johnny B pointed out was useless anyway as it wasn't accurate)
Font/text size on the snow report text is larger/easier to read plus it is broken into paragraphs AND they now have links in the verbiage (specifically to the Uphill policy and pass). Of course you still have to click "read more" to see the full text and it still opens an annoying popup.
Overall snowmaking on/off icon is gone (not sure I see the value in getting rid of that one...)
Font being larger also means some stuff is now weirdly formatted...aka:
View attachment 52675

At least there's some progress/attempts at changes being done though...

Wish they had bragged a bit this morning about having most trails open in VT. Sugarbush 71, Killington 72. Just saying

 

[cdskier]

They should also get rid of all the woods trails and just have them in a section of their own. Way too much noise with those in the trail report and the status is always NOT PATROLLED. And if the status will always be NOT PATROLLED, why even list them on a trail report, when there is nothing to report?

Yup...put them in their own sections. You can have a "Lincoln Peak Woods" section and a "Mt Ellen Woods" section. They definitely just clutter the report at the moment. Plus it still drives me nuts that woods trails like Eden, Lower Snowball Woods, Fischer Cat, Big Birch, etc are all listed in the "Lincoln Peak" section even though all the trails surrounding those areas are listed in the "Gadd Peak" section.

 

[Lotso]

Wish they had bragged a bit this morning about having most trails open in VT. Sugarbush 71, Killington 72. Just saying

Yup...put them in their own sections. You can have a "Lincoln Peak Woods" section and a "Mt Ellen Woods" section. They definitely just clutter the report at the moment. Plus it still drives me nuts that woods trails like Eden, Lower Snowball Woods, Fischer Cat, Big Birch, etc are all listed in the "Lincoln Peak" section even though all the trails surrounding those areas are listed in the "Gadd Peak" section.

Good points. I wonder if the report layout was done by people who are familiar with the mountain, or just looking at a trail map, or if it was ever beta-tested with people who ski there. Or maybe we are that group?
In any case, glad they are making some changes, and getting the clutter of the woods areas out will be a big help.

 

[jaybird]

Wish they had bragged a bit this morning about having most trails open in VT. Sugarbush 71, Killington 72. Just saying

None of K’s 72 trails skied as well as the black terrain at LP yesterday. Fact not opinion.

 

[HowieT2]

Good points. I wonder if the report layout was done by people who are familiar with the mountain, or just looking at a trail map, or if it was ever beta-tested with people who ski there. Or maybe we are that group?
In any case, glad they are making some changes, and getting the clutter of the woods areas out will be a big help.

This website/app morass is music to my ears. daughter is cs major graduating this spring. Apparently, there is big demand for this type of work.

 

[HowieT2]

Short answer - maybe but probably not. We had a major break just below Alpine Options and some other minor leaks. This was old used pipe purchased by ASC in Mexico. Our concern was another break that could have been even more severe and stopped snowmaking completely. At time the time the urgency was to fix what we had Immediately. We replaced the pipe from the pond to Alpine Options. This portion is where the highest pressure occurs and thus the most vulnerable. Subsequently, we began thinking of longer term improvements to address a couple of things. One is the vulnerability of having a snowmaking pond in a flood zone. It was breached once in July when ASC owned Sugarbush and again in August of 2011 when Irene hit, it cost us $1million to repair (uninsured) and was finished just prior to November. We also discovered that the original weir that is put in each fall to allow withdrawal from The Mad River into the pond was bring compromised by winter ice flows. We have repaired it once but the risk of climate change impact has been growing. Before I sold we we’re putting together a long-term plan to replace the existing weir with a bladder one that would be deflated after snowmaking and inflated in the fall. It could also be deflated if there were ice jams. Secondly, for insurance if the pond is breached again, we wanted to build a second reservoir out of the flood zone. So far, the improvement we made to the pond in 2011 have held up but I always lost sleep when the River came up. The most logical spot for a second pond was likely the area (old tennis courts) across from the Sugarbush Inn. Then we thought about how to get more snowmaking capacity. The initial thinking was using the existing pipe fill the pond as well continuing up for snowmaking and putting in a new parallel pipe from the new pond up to the mountain or just putting in a new 36” pipe from the new pond up. We did have an initial preliminary meeting in 2019 with the community to outline this idea. Then Covid hit. I think this is still the long-term idea, but it will require engineering to see what’s viable, permitting after that and a lot of capital. I believe the planning for the new weir is in process, but I have not asked about the status of the rest of this preliminary plan so don’t want to speculate.

what size pond we talking about?
Wouldnt it be better to have the pond up higher up like by Inferno road?
I've been following some guy on youtube building a 5 acre bass pond in alabama. not a small endeavor.

 

[dustyroads]

How early does Castlerock Warming Hut, Walt's and Allen's open for warming?