The "Sugarbush Thread"

[cdskier]

I was always under the impression ME had plenty of water. Maybe a connection pipe between LP/ME is a possible solution? Killington just did that to connect Pico to Killington's system so they don't have to rely on the pond at Pico as much.

I believe the pond at ME is relatively small, but due to the low capacity that ME has (only something like 2000-2500GPM if I remember correctly), it is sufficient for their needs and refills pretty good to keep up with that level of usage. I know the amount of terrain that ME can have snow-making on is limited due to their grand-fathered permit (hence why they disconnected Exterminator so they can potentially eventually put snow-making somewhere else at ME). I could be wrong, but I would assume that is primarily related to essentially a way to limit how much water they use. In that case, connecting LP and ME could violate that ME snow-making permit. I also don't know that the water storage amount at ME would be enough to keep up with the higher usage needs of LP anyway even if the permit wasn't an issue.

For LP in simple terms they need to build a reservoir closer to the resort and then use the lower reservoir to refill the upper reservoir during higher flows, correct?

That would likely be the ideal scenario and what was most recently discussed as the potential solution.

 

[machski]

For LP in simple terms they need to build a reservoir closer to the resort and then use the lower reservoir to refill the upper reservoir during higher flows, correct?

Sort of, they need a large enough storage set-up to not need a refill from the Mad River midseason or once min flow rates in the river happen (all depends on cold. Early cold is great for snowmaking but can put the river to min flows early in too)

 

[jimmywilson69]

right but you fill the big reservoir in the summer and then hopefully refill it multiple times until the low flows appear on the Mad River.

 

[machski]

What you are forgetting is we are now owned by a very large corporation now that has money. The snowmaking is on their agenda, coming soon and permits will not be an issue.

Hawk, I would agree to some extent. However, pre-covid Alterra had a bunch of lift upgrades planed across many of it's resorts. Unlike Vail which postponed those but reinstated all the following year, Alterra did not. Nor have they mentioned plans for next year at places like Tremblant and Mammoth. Mammoth is particularly peculiar as they were going to replace two major Yan converted by Dopp HSQs to HSS out of Main and Canyon bases. Still no new plans for this. Seems they have taken all their Capital investments to just Palisades and Steamboat these days.

 

[machski]

right but you fill the big reservoir in the summer and then hopefully refill it multiple times until the low flows appear on the Mad River.

I would agree, but building a big mountain level reservoir is not a cheap endeavor. Especially if the desired location does not possess the correct soil types to hold water well.

 

[Bosco DaSkia]

If they want more storage capacity during February freeze ups, then they should dig that Reservoir out to its full 61,000,000 gallon permitted capacity. They stop digging that thing at about 25,000,000 gallons of which they can only use about 18,000,000 gallons.

Nothing is going to stop the river from freezing up in February, the only way to deal with that is to increase your storage capacity in the first place.

 

[Hawk]

Hawk, I would agree to some extent. However, pre-covid Alterra had a bunch of lift upgrades planed across many of it's resorts. Unlike Vail which postponed those but reinstated all the following year, Alterra did not. Nor have they mentioned plans for next year at places like Tremblant and Mammoth. Mammoth is particularly peculiar as they were going to replace two major Yan converted by Dopp HSQs to HSS out of Main and Canyon bases. Still no new plans for this. Seems they have taken all their Capital investments to just Palisades and Steamboat these days.

I am going from the words that were said directly to me from the horses mouth so to speak. And they were said to me this year, That makes it sort of post covid. Look, they know the issue, they know the solution, they have a plan. I was told it is a priority maybe not this year or next but in the near future. Speculate all you want but for IKON in the East, Sugarbush is a gem in the rough and I think they have big plans. What that means for us long time regulars and the locals is another discussion.

 

[Newpylong]

I would trust the horses mouth as we can speculate all we want but they are the ones that have had the studies done.

As for using ME water for LP etc that is a non-starter. ME is limited by how much they can withdraw down by the school (and how fast the little Inverness pound refills naturally) and that is largely why their pumping capacity is undersized (and split between Inverness and the hill proper) for that much acreage. What they have refills fine for the pumping capacity, but no more.

My point in mentioning Exterminator was that it seems silly to decommission already permitted acreage when there is no infrastructure in place to swap it with something else. Use it until if and when more acreage is wished to be added to the system, then completely tear it out, not just disconnect it. I keep mentioning ASC, but for all their faults and cheap steel, they "blew the snot" out of everything. We had cold winters in the 90s too...

The plan going forward should be interesting.

 

[cdskier]

My point in mentioning Exterminator was that it seems silly to decommission already permitted acreage when there is no infrastructure in place to swap it with something else. Use it until if and when more acreage is wished to be added to the system, then completely tear it out, not just disconnect it. I keep mentioning ASC, but for all their faults and cheap steel, they "blew the snot" out of everything. We had cold winters in the 90s too...

It never made sense to me either to disconnect it for "future" use elsewhere. Although I'm still not really going to advocate for blowing snow on Ext anyway. Even right now it is skiing fairly well with minimal natural snow. I'd rather they blow on other trails at ME that I don't think they blew on yet like FIS. FIS doesn't seem to cover up as well with only limited natural snow. A bit of a man-made base to cover up all the rocks over there would be nice.

Also call me crazy, but I love the hydrants being left on Ext sticking out on the trails even if they aren't connected. Adds a unique character and I like skiing around them.

 

[tumbler]

If they want more storage capacity during February freeze ups, then they should dig that Reservoir out to its full 61,000,000 gallon permitted capacity. They stop digging that thing at about 25,000,000 gallons of which they can only use about 18,000,000 gallons.

Nothing is going to stop the river from freezing up in February, the only way to deal with that is to increase your storage capacity in the first place.

This would be my plan also, dig out the current pond. There is room for another pump down there and another 5 at base to send it up the hill high pressure.

 

[jimmywilson69]

wasn't there a reason they didn't dig the thing out the entire way?

 

[Hawk]

The problem with the existing pond is it get filled with new sediment everytime there is a big storm. They have fixed and dug it out at least twice in the last 10 years and have replaced the pipe from that pond up to somewhere above.

 

[cdskier]

I'm also tempted to say I recall hearing they ran into an issue digging it out deeper due to a change in the soil type or something like that. (I.e. they hit solid rock that would have required significant blasting or something like that to get through)

 

[WinS]

I'm also tempted to say I recall hearing they ran into an issue digging it out deeper due to a change in the soil type or something like that. (I.e. they hit solid rock that would have required significant blasting or something like that to get through)

That is correct. It was permitted for 61 million gallons, but when the pond was being excavated water began seeping in at the current level and that was as far as ASC could dig. Envision digging in the sand new the water. You can go down so far and then water seeps in. As Hawk said, we had a plan that makes the most sense, and I believe that Alterra will support it. The first step was replacing the current weir in the Mad River and that is going forward.

 

[cdskier]

That is correct. It was permitted for 61 million gallons, but when the pond was being excavated water began seeping in at the current level and that was as far as ASC could dig. Envision digging in the sand new the water. You can go down so far and then water seeps in. As Hawk said, we had a plan that makes the most sense, and I believe that Alterra will support it. The first step was replacing the current weir in the Mad River and that is going forward.

Yea...the plan I remember you previously sharing makes sense. I definitely hope to see Alterra follow through with it sooner rather than later as it will definitely take some time to implement and build out.

 

[jimmywilson69]

although if the water is seeping in that would be free refills! I know the challenges digging a major reservoir out anywhere, especially next to a river, are pretty major.

New Weir, secondary reservoir are definitely a good way forward.

 

[Newpylong]

It never made sense to me either to disconnect it for "future" use elsewhere. Although I'm still not really going to advocate for blowing snow on Ext anyway. Even right now it is skiing fairly well with minimal natural snow. I'd rather they blow on other trails at ME that I don't think they blew on yet like FIS. FIS doesn't seem to cover up as well with only limited natural snow. A bit of a man-made base to cover up all the rocks over there would be nice.

Also call me crazy, but I love the hydrants being left on Ext sticking out on the trails even if they aren't connected. Adds a unique character and I like skiing around them.

Is that typical to also not make snow on Upper FIS now? That one absolutely need something down to bind to those rocks.

 

[Hawk]

That is correct. It was permitted for 61 million gallons, but when the pond was being excavated water began seeping in at the current level and that was as far as ASC could dig. Envision digging in the sand new the water. You can go down so far and then water seeps in. As Hawk said, we had a plan that makes the most sense, and I believe that Alterra will support it. The first step was replacing the current weir in the Mad River and that is going forward.

I wonder if they could have drove in sheet piles around the perimeter to stablize the soil. Actually I bet it would have had to be part of the permit process and not an after thought.

 

[Hawk]

Is that typical to also not make snow on Upper FIS now? That one absolutely need something down to bind to those rocks.

I don't hthink it is typical. I think they blew FIS last year? Anybody?

 

[cdskier]

I don't hthink it is typical. I think they blew FIS last year? Anybody?

I recall them starting to blow snow on FIS last year and then a pipe blew. I can't recall if they ever went back to it after that.