The "Sugarbush Thread"

[jdr14]

True or not, the common perception is that Alterra is skimping on some or all of, snowmaking, grooming, maintenance and staffing. If this is true then Alterra needs to change the way it is operating. If this isn't the case than they had better start creating an new narrative on the mountain. I have never heard as much grumbling and seen as many angry customers as I saw this weekend.

This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
-snowmaking not as good as in the past
-lift maintenance worse than in the past
-snow makers defecting for Stowe
-lift operators seem inexperienced or inattentive (more so than in the past)
-poor handling of John Egan and the crew of mountaineering folks that left because of it
-the unbelievably bad App. (Yes, I know it’s improving, but still not even as good as the old App!)
-no Slidebrook lift all year
-removal of valley house cafeteria without a viable alternative for blazers other than to add to the already overcrowded gate house cafeteria
-The poor initial communication about shutting down all uphill skinning (yes they corrected it, but the tone of the initial message really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way)
-etc.

I know they are trying their best, and have been dealt a very tough hand with the pandemic, but people keep bringing up all these things that have changed for the worse, and the narrative is that this is what to expect from Alterra. It would be nice if there were some big positives to point to (now or in the works) that would turn around the narrative. Like plans for more snowmaking, or newer lifts or new lodges. These are all things that were talked about at one point or another as potential improvements Alterra would make. But at this point, it seems like we’re getting a lot of rationale for why those things are too expensive or don’t make sense. And that’s not a very compelling narrative to people who have loved skiing here for years and want to see things at least stay as good as they were if not get better.

I’m not saying this to criticize. I love Sugarbush. I want nothing more than to see Alterra do well. But it’s getting harder and harder to defend every day…

 

[hovercraft]

This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
-snowmaking not as good as in the past
-lift maintenance worse than in the past
-snow makers defecting for Stowe
-lift operators seem inexperienced or inattentive (more so than in the past)
-poor handling of John Egan and the crew of mountaineering folks that left because of it
-the unbelievably bad App. (Yes, I know it’s improving, but still not even as good as the old App!)
-no Slidebrook lift all year
-removal of valley house cafeteria without a viable alternative for blazers other than to add to the already overcrowded gate house cafeteria
-The poor initial communication about shutting down all uphill skinning (yes they corrected it, but the tone of the initial message really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way)
-etc.

I know they are trying their best, and have been dealt a very tough hand with the pandemic, but people keep bringing up all these things that have changed for the worse, and the narrative is that this is what to expect from Alterra. It would be nice if there were some big positives to point to (now or in the works) that would turn around the narrative. Like plans for more snowmaking, or newer lifts or new lodges. These are all things that were talked about at one point or another as potential improvements Alterra would make. But at this point, it seems like we’re getting a lot of rationale for why those things are too expensive or don’t make sense. And that’s not a very compelling narrative to people who have loved skiing here for years and want to see things at least stay as good as they were if not get better.

I’m not saying this to criticize. I love Sugarbush. I want nothing more than to see Alterra do well. But it’s getting harder and harder to defend every day…

Spot on. You can love SB and still criticize. They both can be true at the same time. It’s the new reality when you have big corporations buy up mountains while selling cheap passes. The price of admission, a degraded “on mountain experience”. Ikon or Epic doesn’t matter, just different problems.

 

[Hastur]

I’m surprised Alterra would be cheaping out at the bush. it’s the eastern flagship, no?

 

[Kingslug20]

I haveboth passes..live equal distance from SB and Stowe. I have only been to SB 4 times so far. I like it but found Stowe to be over all better. But ill keep going to SB as its a different experience..and i hope willbe able to overcome their problems.

 

[cdskier]

I’m surprised Alterra would be cheaping out at the bush. it’s the eastern flagship, no?

I don't agree that they actually ARE cheaping out. I'm not seeing differences in noticeable areas that matter if you look closely at the details (which many people seem to ignore to suit their own narrative). I'd bet if SB shared the snow-making numbers, they'd have pumped comparable amounts of water to other years. There just have been a lot of times this year they had to re-do things early on due to the warm December weather. So people see less snow on the trails and think they made less when in reality they didn't (Mother Nature just melted more of it). The comment about SB snow-making not being as good as in the past is strange to me too. SB has never been a snow-making powerhouse. They just don't have the pumping capacity (or water storage capacity). This has been an ongoing issue for years and has nothing to do with Alterra. Are these comment comments coming from people that actually regularly skied SB? Or are they coming from new people that Ikon is bringing in that just don't have much historical experience with SB to accurately make these comparisons? I suppose you could argue that in a bad snow/weather year, they should make much MORE snow than usual and if they don't you could argue that is "cheaping" out.

In terms of lift issues...people see a lot of issues and just think it is due to maintenance. However once you talk to people that actually know what the issues were, they don't sound at all like things that any amount of maintenance would have prevented (case in point would be the $5 electrical component that randomly broke in Bravo this weekend...or the chair spacing issues they were having on Gate House a couple weeks ago that required Dopplemayer to come out and help trouble-shoot).

Snow-makers leaving for Stowe? This one that seems odd when in various threads this season it was talked about by some people how short-staffed Stowe's snow-making dept was while SB started with a crew of around 50 this year. Maybe a couple people left for Stowe for some reason, but still the first I've heard of this particular issue/concern.

Inattentive lift attendants? That's the first time I heard of that one as well and I haven't noticed any issues/differences at all in this area. In fact I've seen numerous comments in this thread alone at how great and friendly some of the lift attendants are this year (although I also thought those comments were strange as I didn't see anything vastly different this year compared to others as I always thought SB had pretty friendly and personable people working the lifts)

 

[HowieT2]

Spot on. You can love SB and still criticize. They both can be true at the same time. It’s the new reality when you have big corporations buy up mountains while selling cheap passes. The price of admission, a degraded “on mountain experience”. Ikon or Epic doesn’t matter, just different problems.

Its funny, people complain about high prices/taxes in general and the high cost of lift tickets, but then also complain about cheap season passes.

I'd like anyone to post actual numbers for skier visits at SB. From my perspective, it doesnt appear to me that SB is demonstrably more crowded than in the past.

Also, the work done on the base at mellon is a huge improvement.

 

[Kingslug20]

I think this is the season of complaints..a lot legit...a lot bs...

 

[cdskier]

Its funny, people complain about high prices/taxes in general and the high cost of lift tickets, but then also complain about cheap season passes.

I'd like anyone to post actual numbers for skier visits at SB. From my perspective, it doesnt appear to me that SB is demonstrably more crowded than in the past.

Also, the work done on the base at mellon is a huge improvement.

I think it is very difficult to tell for sure without actual data. And what time-frame are people using for comparison? Anecdotally, I feel like SB saw an increase in skier visits when they started offering those cheap quad packs. But I don't feel like this year is more crowded than some of those cheap quad pack years. Some days may feel more crowded, but then other days feel less crowded. I do however feel like there are more people at the mountain earlier in the day than in the past. (I have no real data to back this up though lol)

 

[Slidebrook87]

This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
-snowmaking not as good as in the past
-lift maintenance worse than in the past
-snow makers defecting for Stowe
-lift operators seem inexperienced or inattentive (more so than in the past)
-poor handling of John Egan and the crew of mountaineering folks that left because of it
-the unbelievably bad App. (Yes, I know it’s improving, but still not even as good as the old App!)
-no Slidebrook lift all year
-removal of valley house cafeteria without a viable alternative for blazers other than to add to the already overcrowded gate house cafeteria
-The poor initial communication about shutting down all uphill skinning (yes they corrected it, but the tone of the initial message really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way)
-etc.

I know they are trying their best, and have been dealt a very tough hand with the pandemic, but people keep bringing up all these things that have changed for the worse, and the narrative is that this is what to expect from Alterra. It would be nice if there were some big positives to point to (now or in the works) that would turn around the narrative. Like plans for more snowmaking, or newer lifts or new lodges. These are all things that were talked about at one point or another as potential improvements Alterra would make. But at this point, it seems like we’re getting a lot of rationale for why those things are too expensive or don’t make sense. And that’s not a very compelling narrative to people who have loved skiing here for years and want to see things at least stay as good as they were if not get better.

I’m not saying this to criticize. I love Sugarbush. I want nothing more than to see Alterra do well. But it’s getting harder and harder to defend every day…

Totally agree.

 

[WinS]

T

I missed this comment the first time I saw your post. I remember that time The Mall was groomed quite well and was actually just thinking about it the other day for some reason. Very weird skiing that trail with it being groomed. Completely different trail! Hard to believe that was actually 7 years ago at this point!



Agreed...Sunrise and Birch were two of the few trails that were worth skiing several times Monday morning.

The first and last time The Mall was groomed was 2002 or 2003 other than the portion from Twist down.

 

[tumbler]

I'm not sure how much busier it is, when everything is open the crowd is spread out but we have had greater than usual weekends of limited terrain. My feeling is that it comes down to the difference between a corporate owner and a sole proprietor. Corporate owners don't care about the details and don't want extra money spent on those details. The vibe has certainly changed and I think that it starts at corporate HQ but it carried out by the new management team. When you are a salty 25+ year mountain ops employee you don't understand the experience the guest is looking for. It's more than some half ass snowmaking and grooming.

 

[cdskier]

T

The first and last time The Mall was groomed was 2002 or 2003 other than the portion from Twist down.

I was still in college in 2002 or 2003 so I know I wasn't here back then for that. The first weekend of April 2015 is the time I'm thinking of (and what Shady was probably referring to as well). It was groomed to make it easier to get equipment in to start taking down the Valley House double chair from what I recall. The was the last weekend The Mall was open that year as then work started that week on removal. By the following weekend all the chairs and the haul rope were already down and removed.

 

[teleo]

I do remember a groomed mall just before the dismantling. Was very odd.

On another note, today was why I'm so glad they never groomed upper birdland. Best spring bumps of the season so far.

 

[Hawk]

Mississippi Dave?

Yup, he actually ended up at SR and I believe he is running snowmaking. Or a portion of it. They gave him a really good offer.

 

[Hawk]

I find it funny the amount of comments on why things aren't groomed. Aside from a low snowfall this year that makes it nearly impossible to groom natural trails, Sugarbush has never been a mountain that consistantly groomed bump or natural trails. It has always been an experts mountain and the main reason I ended up here. Occasionlly Win would groom steins because that is his favorite steep groomed run or occasionally moonshine or even middle earth or castlerock on good snow years but not often. I hope they never groom trails like tumbler, hammerhead, Encore or domino, Lixis, mall or anything on castlerock.

 

[cdskier]

I find it funny the amount of comments on why things aren't groomed. Aside from a low snowfall this year that makes it nearly impossible to groom natural trails, Sugarbush has never been a mountain that consistantly groomed bump or natural trails. It has always been an experts mountain and the main reason I ended up here. Occasionlly Win would groom steins because that is his favorite steep groomed run or occasionally moonshine or even middle earth or castlerock on good snow years but not often. I hope they never groom trails like tumbler, hammerhead, Encore or domino, Lixis, mall or anything on castlerock.

Couldn't agree more. Not to sound like an ass, but I hope we don't get a bunch of "new" people visiting that want/lobby for more grooming and "win" that fight (I feel like that audience may be where some of these current grooming comments are coming from). There are plenty of other mountains out there if you want a higher percentage of groomed terrain. The current mix of groomed vs non-groomed at SB is very good to cater to all groups and offers a terrific amount of variety. Sure it can suck in a low snow year or with a lot of thaw/freezes...but that isn't a reason to change what makes SB unique.

 

[Smellytele]

I have to admit this year was the first time I had a season pass to SB. I though would never ask for more grooming except on death spout. I wouldn't mind that thing groomed 4 times a day early season.

 

[MadPadraic]

Corporate owners don't care about the details and don't want extra money spent on those details. The vibe has certainly changed and I think that it starts at corporate HQ but it carried out by the new management team. When you are a salty 25+ year mountain ops employee you don't understand the experience the guest is looking for. It's more than some half ass snowmaking and grooming.

I'm not one to pick on Alterra too much, but I'll raise a few things. Some of the details I love about Sugarbush is the free sun block in the base lodge, but this has been sometimes empty. Also, the Mt Ellen base lodge reno for some reason skipped out on glove baskets in the men's rooms. Why?

However, one of the things i love about SB is that they actually load lifts until 4 and this hasn't changed.

 

[MadPadraic]

I have to admit this year was the first time I had a season pass to SB. I though would never ask for more grooming except on death spout. I wouldn't mind that thing groomed 4 times a day early season.

IMO, death spout should have a dedicated snowmaking pond, and it should be resurfaced daily.

 

[MadPadraic]

I find it funny the amount of comments on why things aren't groomed. Aside from a low snowfall this year that makes it nearly impossible to groom natural trails, Sugarbush has never been a mountain that consistantly groomed bump or natural trails. It has always been an experts mountain and the main reason I ended up here. Occasionlly Win would groom steins because that is his favorite steep groomed run or occasionally moonshine or even middle earth or castlerock on good snow years but not often. I hope they never groom trails like tumbler, hammerhead, Encore or domino, Lixis, mall or anything on castlerock.

Couldn't agree more. Not to sound like an ass, but I hope we don't get a bunch of "new" people visiting that want/lobby for more grooming and "win" that fight (I feel like that audience may be where some of these current grooming comments are coming from). There are plenty of other mountains out there if you want a higher percentage of groomed terrain. The current mix of groomed vs non-groomed at SB is very good to cater to all groups and offers a terrific amount of variety. Sure it can suck in a low snow year or with a lot of thaw/freezes...but that isn't a reason to change what makes SB unique.

Just to clarify my earlier gripe/request, there is a huge difference between saying that there should be at least one run smoothed out after a torch then ice event and your fears of every single run being smoothed every day. I'd advocate for common sense here and providing more diversity in runs whenever possible. A mountain with nothing but bumps gets boring just as fast as a mountain with nothing but groomers. Honestly, I think this is an area where Cannon shines: they let Avie and Pauli bump up for a while after any snowstorm, but will knock them down once they become miserable and no longer add to the experience. Cannon also manages to keep Vista (an all natural trail) in good shape throughout. On the flipside, I don't think Hard Scrabble has ever seen a goomer.