The "Sugarbush Thread"

[cdskier]

Just to clarify my earlier gripe/request, there is a huge difference between saying that there should be at least one run smoothed out after a torch then ice event and your fears of every single run being smoothed every day. I'd advocate for common sense here and providing more diversity in runs whenever possible. A mountain with nothing but bumps gets boring just as fast as a mountain with nothing but groomers. Honestly, I think this is an area where Cannon shines: they let Avie and Pauli bump up for a while after any snowstorm, but will knock them down once they become miserable and no longer add to the experience. Cannon also manages to keep Vista (an all natural trail) in good shape throughout. On the flipside, I don't think Hard Scrabble has ever seen a goomer.

Your earlier post would have been fine if you simply stated you wished they groomed Cliffs. And many people would have agreed with you on that one as skier's right usually is regularly groomed while skier's left is left to bump up. They made snow on it this year and were grooming it earlier in the season, so I'm still surprised it wasn't groomed. The grooming plan at SB is usually pretty well thought out. So if they didn't groom it, there presumably was a reason. Throwing Exterminator, Encore and FIS into the discussion is what caused the push back and/or confusion though.

I can't speak to the terrain on Vista at Cannon as I've never been there. It looks like a blue on their trail map so I'm not really sure that is a fair comparison to any of the steeper natural trails at SB for what can/can't be groomed. SB does groom some natural trails as needed IF there's sufficient snow depth to do so and if conditions warrant. Right now even if they wanted to, the vast majority of natural snow trails don't have anywhere near enough depth to groom them.

 

[HowieT2]

I'm not one to pick on Alterra too much, but I'll raise a few things. Some of the details I love about Sugarbush is the free sun block in the base lodge, but this has been sometimes empty. Also, the Mt Ellen base lodge reno for some reason skipped out on glove baskets in the men's rooms. Why?

However, one of the things i love about SB is that they actually load lifts until 4 and this hasn't changed.

oh yeah, and hooks all over that lodge to hang gear.

personally I don't know what alterra is spending on operating SB, whether its more or less than previously. Pretty sure most of us don't know. What I do know, is that the corporate entity seems to be doing well, and SB specifically seems to be doing well, with lodging filled and plenty of skiers spending money at the mountain. I think when conditions suck people are rightfully aggrieved and naturally look for someone/thing to blame. Maybe theyre right, I have no idea. Seems to me like when a baseball team is struggling to score runs, they blame the hitting coach and some poor (well not really poor) guy gets fired when it really has little to do with his job performance. I'll bet come next week, if we pull down 2 feet of the white stuff and everyone's pounding laps in slidebrook, there will be a lot less talk about how Alterra is ruining the place.

 

[ducky]

As Share Prices Tumble, Wall Street Says Vail Needs to Clean Up Operations

Share price went from $372 in November to $276 in February, following national criticism over its management and sales strategies.

www.skimag.com

I hear from local Stowe skier friends to expect an exodus next year from Stowe to Sugarbush. Now could be an opportunity to balance the pass price to revenue equation (by raising prices).

 

[Slidebrook87]

Personally of the trails that aren't groomed this season, I think that Steins, Cliffs, Birdland (upper) should be groomed. I always find that Steins rarely has enough natural snow to get bumped up and ski well, and once they have made snow on it, its usually an icy mess. I haven't skied it in ages for this very reason, but I recall it being groomed quite often during the 18/19 season.

 

[hovercraft]

As Share Prices Tumble, Wall Street Says Vail Needs to Clean Up Operations

Share price went from $372 in November to $276 in February, following national criticism over its management and sales strategies.

www.skimag.com

I hear from local Stowe skier friends to expect an exodus next year from Stowe to Sugarbush. Now could be an opportunity to balance the pass price to revenue equation (by raising prices) and take their own path rather than following.

makes my day if that happens

 

[mikec142]

Personally of the trails that aren't groomed this season, I think that Steins, Cliffs, Birdland (upper) should be groomed. I always find that Steins rarely has enough natural snow to get bumped up and ski well, and once they have made snow on it, its usually an icy mess. I haven't skied it in ages for this very reason, but I recall it being groomed quite often during the 18/19 season.

I've been spending the majority of my ski days at SB for over ten years. The interesting thing to me is that I acrue new SB knowledge and form and refine opinions every time I ski at SB. One of those opinions (and it may not be a popular one) is that I'm not a fan of Stein's. Mostly because I usually find it to be icy, both when bumped and groomed. Sadly, once April hits, I rarely get up there, but I'm looking forward to a warm spring bump session on Stein's that will hopefully change my opinion.

 

[thetrailboss]

It started snowing this morning in Big Sky and I know why--I saw Win here this morning!

 

[cdskier]

Personally of the trails that aren't groomed this season, I think that Steins, Cliffs, Birdland (upper) should be groomed. I always find that Steins rarely has enough natural snow to get bumped up and ski well, and once they have made snow on it, its usually an icy mess. I haven't skied it in ages for this very reason, but I recall it being groomed quite often during the 18/19 season.

I think the issue with Steins is it has been tricky to find the right time to groom it after they made the whales on it. First you wanted them to drain...but then you also need to remember this is a full 2-shift job to groom that out with the whales on it. So you need to probably do it on a day that you decide to skip winching some other terrain such as Ripcord. The weather hasn't been conducive to allowing the timing to be right to do this yet. At least that's my thoughts on why it hasn't been groomed yet.

I also don't think it is accurate to say Cliffs isn't groomed this season. I've skied it groomed (pretty sure more than 1 day too). They had the whole issue with the uphill access being cut off temporarily due to issues while they were winching it.

As for upper birdland...again it comes down to snow depth. They made less snow on it this year (ran out of water while they were working on it and never went back to it). Letting it bump up makes sense in that situation as it'll last longer. Kind of fun to have another low angle bump run. I'm not sure what I'd like to see going forward with that trail.

 

[STREETSKIER]

It started snowing this morning in Big Sky and I know why--I saw Win here this morning!

It’s going to snow a foot plus here
Going to be all time
Laps in slide all day

 

[ThatGuy]

It’s going to snow a foot plus here
Going to be all time
Laps in slide all day

Wouldn’t count on a foot making SB ski that great. The base is pretty much nonexistent after the recent weather.

 

[ducky]

From our friends to the north posted a couple hours ago.

Ski+RideVT​

Stowe Mountain Rescue · 2h ·
https://www.facebook.com/#
Attention Stowe residents and visitors (and please don't shoot the messenger): if you're relishing the prospect of some backcountry skiing after this coming storm, perhaps think again. With the impending Winter Weather Advisory forecasting 6-12 inches of snow for Northern Vermont, it will be tempting to get out there and play but it is imperative that backcountry skiers and riders be wary of the conditions.
With the recent warm weather, Mother Nature has absolutely devastated the back-country snowpack, reducing it to 'November levels' with bare ground showing and exposing debris that just a few weeks ago was covered. Furthermore, the gullies have been flush with raging water, eliminating or severely impacting the ice/snow covering - and where snow still stands, runoff continues to flow under a severely undercut protective layer. The consequences of breaking through would be ugly (or potentially deadly, if we're going to be graphic).
Please heed this warning. ALPINE back-country skiing/riding is severely compromised and we urge skiers/riders to avoid that terrain until snowpack returns to appropriate levels.
Fingers crossed for March...

 

[cdskier]

Well this should make some people happy...

Overnight our Groomers will hit over 40 trails including Stein's Run and The Cliffs.

And Ripcord is NOT on the grooming list tonight (to my point earlier that you needed a time when you can groom Steins and skip Ripcord due to how much work Steins with whales is to groom out).

Upper Birdland is on the schedule as well for tonight (before a storm is a good time to reset bumps...so this makes sense as well).

 

[STREETSKIER]

Wouldn’t count on a foot making SB ski that great. The base is pretty much nonexistent after the recent weather.

Oh

 

[HowieT2]

mansfield snow depth is at 32". so not good but a solid foot would help. more likely SB gets a foot than our friends up north.

 

[cdskier]

There's a lot less snow at the base than at the summit. Lots of bare ground along German Flats Rd when I drove down to town before.

 

[Los]

The base is pretty much nonexistent after the recent weather.

Is that supposition, or is it based on first hand knowledge following this week’s rain event?

 

[cdskier]

Is that supposition, or is it based on first hand knowledge following this week’s rain event?

Depends where you are on the mountain. Upper elevations still have base. Lower elevations are very minimal. My condo is a couple hundred feet above the base elevation at LP and there's an awful lot of bare ground around here. CR webcam shows the area around the base of the lift looking pretty thin... Sure this isn't indicative of everything as there certainly is some base in some places at lower elevations depending on aspect and traffic...

 

[WinS]

This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
-snowmaking not as good as in the past
-lift maintenance worse than in the past
-snow makers defecting for Stowe
-lift operators seem inexperienced or inattentive (more so than in the past)
-poor handling of John Egan and the crew of mountaineering folks that left because of it
-the unbelievably bad App. (Yes, I know it’s improving, but still not even as good as the old App!)
-no Slidebrook lift all year
-removal of valley house cafeteria without a viable alternative for blazers other than to add to the already overcrowded gate house cafeteria
-The poor initial communication about shutting down all uphill skinning (yes they corrected it, but the tone of the initial message really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way)
-etc.

I know they are trying their best, and have been dealt a very tough hand with the pandemic, but people keep bringing up all these things that have changed for the worse, and the narrative is that this is what to expect from Alterra. It would be nice if there were some big positives to point to (now or in the works) that would turn around the narrative. Like plans for more snowmaking, or newer lifts or new lodges. These are all things that were talked about at one point or another as potential improvements Alterra would make. But at this point, it seems like we’re getting a lot of rationale for why those things are too expensive or don’t make sense. And that’s not a very compelling narrative to people who have loved skiing here for years and want to see things at least stay as good as they were if not get better.

I’m not saying this to criticize. I love Sugarbush. I want nothing more than to see Alterra do well. But it’s getting harder and harder to defend every day…

I debated whether to weigh in on this as I can’t be seen as totally objective. However, I am still on the NSAA Board as Past Chair and will share some industry perspective, and I have skied 82 of my 86 days at Sugarbush this year.

First, Sugarbush thoughts. If I were still the owner the comments would be “that Smith guy is cheap and not spending money on grooming and snowmaking and lift maintenance.” There is very little that has been done this season that I would do differently. While I have no financial interest in Sugarbush or Alterra, I do have a vested interested in helping where I can with thoughts or advice. But I do that selectively as there is nothing worse than a former owner or CEO meddling after retirement. Alterra does not micro-manage. They expect John and his team to create a sensible annual budget and after review and approval they hold the Sugarbush team accountable for delivering it. No different than what we did under my ownership.
- This has been about the most challenging year for snowmaking that I have seen. It was warm and the number of snowmaking hours were brief before another warm-up hit. Sugarbush started with one of the best crews in recent years and while people were not leaving for Stowe, snowmakers actually came here instead of going to Stowe. The snowmaking temps required a different plan than we have had in past years, and that it why you saw Birdland coming on later than has been the case. While fewer gallons were blown because of the weather volatility, Sugarbush‘s cost of snowmaking went up significantly as I pointed out in any earlier post. That did not deter Sugarbush from making snow whenever they could.
-The majority of the Lifts Ops management team is still here. A big loss two years ago was Jasen Bellomy, the Lift Maintenance Manager. We got him from Saddleback when they closed, but he went back with two others when they reopened. He actually applied for a job other than lift maintenance a year ago but it did not work out and he has become the Mountain Manager at Bellayre in NY, a role he aspired to.
-Labor has been challenging everywhere as you all know. Sugarbush had 91% of jobs filled at the start of the season. Not great but better than many. I have heard of some as low as 75%. John Hammond moved the minimum wage to $15 over the summer, a significant increase, and he was one of the first to do it.
-I too wish John Egan was still here. He was a respected colleague and added a lot. The Bush Pilot coaches and Adventure Blazer coaches as no longer here, but I am not aware of other leaving because of his departure.
-Yes, the new app was a step backward and very frustrating to the Sugarbush team as well as us. Fortunately, there are some important improvements.
-Slidebrook is disappointing to all of us but also to Sugarbush. On a busy day it moves people and makes for a better guest experience. But when you are down to 8 lift mechanics from an ideal 14, it is impossible to spare one for two hours to get it open. All 40 tours have to be visually seen by a mechanic. In my opinion Spencer, the current manager of the lift maintenance team, is a very able professional and is rebuilding the team. I commented in an earlier post about some of the competition for lift mechanics.
-I disagree with the comment about the language used about skinning. It was appropriately tough given what occurred. The winch incident was the final straw, but there had been multiple violations occurring before that one.
-The blazer comment is a reasonable one. Keith Paxman took over just as the season began and inherited something that he could not fix this year.
- Yes, there have been quite a few lifts issues this year. Shit happens especially in climates like ours, but I do not think it is from neglect. That said, it sucks to be stuck on a lift for 20 or more minutes and no one cares about the reason.
- I can‘t share skier visit numbers, but I do not think they will exceed those during my final two years of ownership. But, having all lifts running and the woods skiable makes for a very different experience on a crowded day.
- Grooming. This is where I might have done things a bit differently at times Like grooming Sunrise a couple of days earlier. But I am not on top of groomer shifts and other issues that impact the daily snow plan. Stein‘s on the other hand needs to be groomed when either snow or snowmaking with occur afterwards. Otherwise, it needs winching every night which then takes away from other trails.

Now, an industry respective. At the last NSAA Board meeting we had a “go around the table update“ from all Board members who are predominantly GMs of ski areas. They come from East and West, small and large. Almost to a person they commented on how customer perception this year was as tough as they have experienced and highlighTed many of the same comments listed above.

Bottom line:

I too have heard many of these comments
Many of the skiers are first time IKON visitors
Staffing and Covid have placed huge strains on all Sugarbush areas.
Alterra is behaving exactly as they told me they would.
Example: they followed through on the commit to VASS and added more $ to improve the lodge for all
They have not inserted anyone onto the team here, but 5-6 have been promoted to jobs in Alterra.
I personally think the Sugarbush team has done an excellent job this winter and are working their ass off.

That said I am in Big Sky and will miss the Friday powder which should change the conversation.

 

[cdskier]

I debated whether to weigh in on this as I can’t be seen as totally objective. However, I am still on the NSAA Board as Past Chair and will share some industry perspective, and I have skied 82 of my 86 days at Sugarbush this year.

First, Sugarbush thoughts. If I were still the owner the comments would be “that Smith guy is cheap and not spending money on grooming and snowmaking and lift maintenance.” There is very little that has been done this season that I would do differently. While I have no financial interest in Sugarbush or Alterra, I do have a vested interested in helping where I can with thoughts or advice. But I do that selectively as there is nothing worse than a former owner or CEO meddling after retirement. Alterra does not micro-manage. They expect John and his team to create a sensible annual budget and after review and approval they hold the Sugarbush team accountable for delivering it. No different than what we did under my ownership.
- This has been about the most challenging year for snowmaking that I have seen. It was warm and the number of snowmaking hours were brief before another warm-up hit. Sugarbush started with one of the best crews in recent years and while people were not leaving for Stowe, snowmakers actually came here instead of going to Stowe. The snowmaking temps required a different plan than we have had in past years, and that it why you saw Birdland coming on later than has been the case. While fewer gallons were blown because of the weather volatility, Sugarbush‘s cost of snowmaking went up significantly as I pointed out in any earlier post. That did not deter Sugarbush from making snow whenever they could.
-The majority of the Lifts Ops management team is still here. A big loss two years ago was Jasen Bellomy, the Lift Maintenance Manager. We got him from Saddleback when they closed, but he went back with two others when they reopened. He actually applied for a job other than lift maintenance a year ago but it did not work out and he has become the Mountain Manager at Bellayre in NY, a role he aspired to.
-Labor has been challenging everywhere as you all know. Sugarbush had 91% of jobs filled at the start of the season. Not great but better than many. I have heard of some as low as 75%. John Hammond moved the minimum wage to $15 over the summer, a significant increase, and he was one of the first to do it.
-I too wish John Egan was still here. He was a respected colleague and added a lot. The Bush Pilot coaches and Adventure Blazer coaches as no longer here, but I am not aware of other leaving because of his departure.
-Yes, the new app was a step backward and very frustrating to the Sugarbush team as well as us. Fortunately, there are some important improvements.
-Slidebrook is disappointing to all of us but also to Sugarbush. On a busy day it moves people and makes for a better guest experience. But when you are down to 8 lift mechanics from an ideal 14, it is impossible to spare one for two hours to get it open. All 40 tours have to be visually seen by a mechanic. In my opinion Spencer, the current manager of the lift maintenance team, is a very able professional and is rebuilding the team. I commented in an earlier post about some of the competition for lift mechanics.
-I disagree with the comment about the language used about skinning. It was appropriately tough given what occurred. The winch incident was the final straw, but there had been multiple violations occurring before that one.
-The blazer comment is a reasonable one. Keith Paxman took over just as the season began and inherited something that he could not fix this year.
- Yes, there have been quite a few lifts issues this year. Shit happens especially in climates like ours, but I do not think it is from neglect. That said, it sucks to be stuck on a lift for 20 or more minutes and no one cares about the reason.
- I can‘t share skier visit numbers, but I do not think they will exceed those during my final two years of ownership. But, having all lifts running and the woods skiable makes for a very different experience on a crowded day.
- Grooming. This is where I might have done things a bit differently at times Like grooming Sunrise a couple of days earlier. But I am not on top of groomer shifts and other issues that impact the daily snow plan. Stein‘s on the other hand needs to be groomed when either snow or snowmaking with occur afterwards. Otherwise, it needs winching every night which then takes away from other trails.

Now, an industry respective. At the last NSAA Board meeting we had a “go around the table update“ from all Board members who are predominantly GMs of ski areas. They come from East and West, small and large. Almost to a person they commented on how customer perception this year was as tough as they have experienced and highlighTed many of the same comments listed above.

Bottom line:

I too have heard many of these comments
Many of the skiers are first time IKON visitors
Staffing and Covid have placed huge strains on all Sugarbush areas.
Alterra is behaving exactly as they told me they would.
Example: they followed through on the commit to VASS and added more $ to improve the lodge for all
They have not inserted anyone onto the team here, but 5-6 have been promoted to jobs in Alterra.
I personally think the Sugarbush team has done an excellent job this winter and are working their ass off.

That said I am in Big Sky and will miss the Friday powder which should change the conversation.

I know you don't like to comment on operational issues, but thank you for this post. I think it gives a very useful and important perspective. Enjoy Big Sky!

 

[thetrailboss]

This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
-snowmaking not as good as in the past
-lift maintenance worse than in the past
-snow makers defecting for Stowe
-lift operators seem inexperienced or inattentive (more so than in the past)
-poor handling of John Egan and the crew of mountaineering folks that left because of it
-the unbelievably bad App. (Yes, I know it’s improving, but still not even as good as the old App!)
-no Slidebrook lift all year
-removal of valley house cafeteria without a viable alternative for blazers other than to add to the already overcrowded gate house cafeteria
-The poor initial communication about shutting down all uphill skinning (yes they corrected it, but the tone of the initial message really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way)
-etc.

I know they are trying their best, and have been dealt a very tough hand with the pandemic, but people keep bringing up all these things that have changed for the worse, and the narrative is that this is what to expect from Alterra. It would be nice if there were some big positives to point to (now or in the works) that would turn around the narrative. Like plans for more snowmaking, or newer lifts or new lodges. These are all things that were talked about at one point or another as potential improvements Alterra would make. But at this point, it seems like we’re getting a lot of rationale for why those things are too expensive or don’t make sense. And that’s not a very compelling narrative to people who have loved skiing here for years and want to see things at least stay as good as they were if not get better.

I’m not saying this to criticize. I love Sugarbush. I want nothing more than to see Alterra do well. But it’s getting harder and harder to defend every day…

Sounds like an IKONic experience to me.