I think the only thing that might be added would be the runout from HG to the base. And normally when they make a run to the base it's on Coffee Run not Gondolier, Coffee Run much narrower and easier to pound. If Birdland was added it would only be to where HGT crosses. No LOG as there is no way to get there yet besides natural on DS-Domino Chute but LOG would also stop at HGT. There some big water bars in there.
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The "Sugarbush Thread"
- Thread starter thetrailboss
- Start date
vtski802
Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2024
- Messages
- 69
- Points
- 18
It's both hilarious and sad that they've updated the website snow report with their opening plans, but apparently forgot to take out the "we'll update you Wednesday afternoon about our opening plans" further down in the paragraph.
vtski802
Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2024
- Messages
- 69
- Points
- 18
Rain is forecast to be pretty minimal and further north. Short window of warm weather, then right back to cold. Not as gloom and doom as a week ago, praise Ullr.
oldfartrider
Active member
You guys should be happy there is limited info. You constantly complain there too many people on the mountain for what is open. I see on their home page Opening Day this Saturday. It's all I need to know, I'll find out the details when I get there. But I'll be elsewhere but I look forward to reading all the complaining on here after Saturday lol.
fulgoreXC
New member
Correct CR is usually done ahead of Gondo. CR has more hydrants than Gondo which is why it's preferred. Given the attempt this year to get a runout from HG to Bravo Gondo is the more direct route which is why they are doing that this year. Regarding Lower OG, it's the opposite. Open LOG from HGT down to Gondo. Given the low standards for opening terrain this is a high possibility.
you are undoubtedly correct and this is the crux of the issue. Almost half of their snowmaking capacity is stranded at Mt. Ellen. It contributes 'nothing to getting LP up and running. It is why even if snowmaking capacity is managed optimally (and I'm not arguing that it was or is) the early season trail count is going to pale in comparison to its peers to the north and south.
Maybe this question has been answered in the past but would it be easier to connect the systems vs. building a new pond? Seems like if they could enhance the water capacity, that would solve a lot of problems. Run a pipe across slide-brook. Totally realize this would be a big environmental undertaking.
Plowboy
Active member
From what I remember the original permit for the Mad River pond does not allow the water to be used at Sugarbush North at the time. Basically they can’t link the 2 systems.
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There is plenty for people to be frustrated about right now, and I’ve voiced my own criticisms of Sugarbush many times. But with everything going on, I think it’s still worth taking a step back and being thankful that we actually get to ski this weekend. There are areas where the resort can and should do better, but there are also things that are simply outside of their control.
While Sugarbush has real improvements to make, it is also important to be realistic about the financial constraints they operate under. From a financial perspective, Sugarbush is not one of Alterra’s larger contributing resorts. This, combined with the broader macroeconomic backdrop, results in less capital being allocated our way and certain larger projects being pushed to the back burner. Alterra has to be tactical with its capital spending in this environment. A full snowmaking overhaul or multiple new lifts is unlikely when you look at how the company prioritizes investment across its highest-return properties. I am trying to get more insight into Alterra’s financials and will share anything useful that I learn.
With that said, snowmaking remains the single biggest improvement Sugarbush needs to make. Recent seasons have made it clear that the mountain has fallen behind competitors like Stowe and Killington in early-season capability. If Sugarbush continues to lag into December and especially the holiday period, it risks losing visitors to those mountains during one of the most financially important stretches of the year. This could create urgency for a meaningful snowmaking upgrade.
Even with all the shortcomings, there is still room to appreciate what we do have in front of us. We get to ski this weekend, and that is not something every mountain in the region can say right now. Hopefully Alterra sees strong performance across its big western destinations this winter and tourism remains healthy. A stronger financial year at the corporate level could ultimately translate into more capital flowing to Sugarbush, and with that, the improvements we have all been pushing for.
For now, I’m looking forward to making some turns and hoping this is the start of a positive winter.
While Sugarbush has real improvements to make, it is also important to be realistic about the financial constraints they operate under. From a financial perspective, Sugarbush is not one of Alterra’s larger contributing resorts. This, combined with the broader macroeconomic backdrop, results in less capital being allocated our way and certain larger projects being pushed to the back burner. Alterra has to be tactical with its capital spending in this environment. A full snowmaking overhaul or multiple new lifts is unlikely when you look at how the company prioritizes investment across its highest-return properties. I am trying to get more insight into Alterra’s financials and will share anything useful that I learn.
With that said, snowmaking remains the single biggest improvement Sugarbush needs to make. Recent seasons have made it clear that the mountain has fallen behind competitors like Stowe and Killington in early-season capability. If Sugarbush continues to lag into December and especially the holiday period, it risks losing visitors to those mountains during one of the most financially important stretches of the year. This could create urgency for a meaningful snowmaking upgrade.
Even with all the shortcomings, there is still room to appreciate what we do have in front of us. We get to ski this weekend, and that is not something every mountain in the region can say right now. Hopefully Alterra sees strong performance across its big western destinations this winter and tourism remains healthy. A stronger financial year at the corporate level could ultimately translate into more capital flowing to Sugarbush, and with that, the improvements we have all been pushing for.
For now, I’m looking forward to making some turns and hoping this is the start of a positive winter.
It would be great to pull water from Ellen to help with early season opening but I am sure that is also not allowed. To me, access to water is the biggest issue. You can either build a new storage pond (very expensive and environmental hurdles) or try to find an additional water source for Lincoln peak (mt. Ellen). The other option is to upgrade the pumping/pipe from the current pond but that doesn't solve the drought issue and would just deplete the pond faster. If they had more water capacity, they could blow multiple trails at a time which would solve a lot of the issues we have been griping about.
Sounds like the plan is Killington saturday and sugarbush sunday.
No, can't pull water from ME to LP based on what I recall with the ME water permits being grandfathered and limited in scope (I don't even think ME can add snow-making to any additional trails if they wanted to under the existing permits).. But at the same time, while ME has enough water for ME, I'm not so sure it necessarily would have that much excess to be able to help LP (unless ME was not making snow at the time).
ColdRain&Snow
Active member
Is there an environmental issue? I recently read killington sends water to pico and the two resorts melt into different drainage basins (Connecticut River and Lake Champlain). There were concerns about transferring invasive species but VT ok’d it.
Fallen behind? Sugarbush was never in competition with K or Stowe when it came to snowmaking.
oldfartrider
Active member
Stowe has 2 snowmaking ponds totaling just under 200m gallons.
It just seems like it is more about the ability to focus on one mountain. If they could use Lincoln + Ellen's water on Lincoln for the Nov + first week of December and then shift and use lincoln + Ellen's water at Mt. Ellen they could deliver a better product and maybe even save money. They are already blowing at Ellen but if it gets warm it can melt vs. doing it closer to when they actually open. All of that snowmaking just sits there until Dec. 19th. As someone said earlier, no ski area in the world has a worse ratio of snow made to terrain open. They probably won't even have to upgrade the compressors much with the new energy efficient guns. This would also give them more flexibility on if they want to open more of Lincoln before the holiday where right now they are constrained.
No matter which path they choose, there is going to be a big environmental peice....new pond, etc.
People forget that “competition” in snowmaking wasn’t really a thing decades ago. Sugarbush didn’t look behind because nobody was racing to cover entire mountains with man-made snow. Winters were colder, storms were more consistent, and natural snow played a much bigger role. In that environment, Sugarbush’s terrain and snowfall carried most of the load and the differences in snowmaking systems were not nearly as important.
Killington was always the outlier because they built an industrial-scale system very early, but Stowe didn’t become a snowmaking powerhouse until much more recently. For a long time the gap simply didn’t matter because natural snow filled in what the guns didn’t.
The reality today is different. The climate is warmer, storms are less reliable, and early season depends almost entirely on snowmaking. The mountains that invested heavily and early suddenly look far ahead of everyone else. Sugarbush is being judged against modern conditions, not the conditions that existed twenty or thirty years ago.
When people say Sugarbush has fallen behind, it is not a comparison to the past. It is a reflection of what skiing requires today. You could get away with relying on natural snow in the 1990s. You cannot do that today. And that is why the gap feels larger now than it ever did before.
fulgoreXC
New member
To piggyback onto the wise words from @MrGlen. This time of year, from what I have gathered, the main complaints are snowmaking, lack thereof or not in the right location. Then as the season goes along it's "fix the lifts", and "the snowmaking surface is too icy, the grooming sucks". What you're really seeing is deferred maintenance. Win was great but there was a limit to his resources. During his time EBITDA peaked around $7M. Within a few years after Alterra bought him out the EBITDA rose to $17M+. During that time investments totaled well over 10M for snowmaking and another 5M+ for HG lift. That's a huge % of investment. To catch up it's going to be many millions more. A Northridge replacement is rumored to be in excess of 12M. Creating a more robust water supply for LP for snowmaking would be 30+. Bottom line we will never be lacking for something to complain about. I only wish this would be better communicated.
Regarding the Slide Brook snowmaking by-pass... Um, no. By percentage of stored water to acres covered North is by far in worse shape than South. @cdskier is correct, Ellen is grandfathered in under the 1986 snowmaking withdrawal rules. Any expansion whatsoever would trigger regulatory review which would result in new permit conditions. Effectively eliminating the existing sources. That's a no-go, period.
I get wanting to have the mountain to yourself and short lines at any lift you choose at anytime. But the only way to modernize the infrastructure is through the IKON pass. More visits, more EBITDA, more capital investment.
Regarding the Slide Brook snowmaking by-pass... Um, no. By percentage of stored water to acres covered North is by far in worse shape than South. @cdskier is correct, Ellen is grandfathered in under the 1986 snowmaking withdrawal rules. Any expansion whatsoever would trigger regulatory review which would result in new permit conditions. Effectively eliminating the existing sources. That's a no-go, period.
I get wanting to have the mountain to yourself and short lines at any lift you choose at anytime. But the only way to modernize the infrastructure is through the IKON pass. More visits, more EBITDA, more capital investment.
It might sit there until December 19th...but they're also spending the majority of the time from now until December 19th getting those trails covered so they are ready to go come December 19th. Even if they could hypothetically use ME's water at LP (which we know they can't), then that greatly jeopardizes the amount of terrain at ME that would be covered by their opening day. They use the ME system pretty much to full capacity during this pre-season time and often still have trails not yet covered when the mountain opens. Everyone would be pissed if they did that as well and then the comments would be "They had plenty of time, how can they not have all these trails ready yet?"
Years ago Bush wasn't that far behind because they would rent portable air compressors for Nov-Jan to up their air capacity which is what is needed early season in marginal temps. This would help run many more guns and they would move around to get stuff open then come back to build up depths.
fulgoreXC
New member
Air is not the issue. LP is sitting on more air than can be consumed. Even if adding portables was needed, can you imagine the uproar firing up those diesels and having tanker trucks day and night bringing in fuel? Killington has quietly moved away from that very scenario. You now rarely see the infamous "K-gun" on the socials. They are now using the exact same guns as SB.
The problem is and will always be WATER. Until they have a 60Mgal pond like Stowe or 120Mgal like Kmart it's going to be water.
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