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Trails with absurd difficulty ratings

dovoian

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I came in this thread to mention Big Emma - I don't know of any other green trails with an airable headwall! (memory is 10 years old on that one, I may be talking about a section that intersects Barry Barry Steep and technically not part of Big Emma). Snowbird in general did not seem inflated in marked difficulty - I once looked over Great Scott and thought it would be a good place to put an elevator shaft..

Of the places I go normally:

I thought Bretton Woods was in general very very overrated in difficulty all over the mountain, although not to say the place is worthless or anything - its actually a very nice relaxing place to ski lower angle trees (except the lift structure is nonsensical). Attitash seems overrated because they groom almost everything (although their groomers are pretty darn steep sometimes, like Upper/Middle Ptarmigan).

Cannon's trail ratings seem pretty fair, with maybe an occasional lapse, like for Middle Cannon Bypass and Paulie's Extension being black when imo they seem kinda blue.. Although with Cannon, difficulty is very conditions-dependent (stay off that shiny blue stuff)!

Mad River Glen is the hilarious one - as far as I've experienced, anything there marked blue would be marked black at most other places I've been, and anything marked black would either be double black, roped all season, or unmarked. Not that I've been all over that mountain (I think I've taken maybe 15 runs there total, and 10 of them have been down various sections of Paradise). Ferret is a funny one - for a traverse, its actually pretty nuts! And very fun! It's black probably because it dumps into a black, but someone used to blues at most resorts would probably find themselves a little flustered getting through it. I feel like someone totally uninitiated might get into some trouble there, but probably be able to get themselves out with nothing but a funny story.

I just started going to Sugarbush this season, but IMO it looks pretty fairly marked. They're not too generous with the doubles, and Castlerock is pretty gnarly and warrants the black/d-black. The marked trees are just 'zones' which is cool, as I believe glades are kind of in their own category of difficulty and best measured by surrounding trails and tree density..

I think that a lot of times trails get marked up for being narrow. That makes me sort of sad, because the challenge in a narrow trail IMO is a bit in your head, as you don't tend to take up a whole football field regardless of your ability. I guess at most places a narrow trail gets ruined pretty quickly also, from quads dumping 4 people every 3 seconds onto the hill.
 

oakapple

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Trail ratings are a mixture of honesty, marketing, and liability management. I don't think there's any dishonesty in labeling your hardest trail(s) black, even if — objectively speaking — they'd be blue somewhere else.

I do think that if a ski area uses the double-black designation at all, it ought to be objectively difficult, and not merely "the hardest we have." Camelback has a ridiculous double-black that's only slightly harder than blue.

Triple-blacks really should be insane, or they have no business using that label.
 

xwhaler

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Another trail that has an incorrect rating is "America" at Saddleback. It is flat and should be a green but is officially a blue. Looking at older ski maps:
http://skimap.org/SkiAreas/view/446
...in 2008 America was considered a green run, but before 2008 was considered a black diamond...go figure!

I believe Saddleback does that to keep true beginners off the summitt. Certainly anyone can ski America but in order to lap America multiple times in a row you would need to go back to the Pass which is fairly narrow and with skiiers dropping in from other various trails/glades all the time. Also may require some poling which beginners may not have perfected yet. And there is a little pitch down back to the lift on Green Weaver (Blue) that is required.
which I've seen can get scraped off quickly.
Pretty sure they just wanted to make sure skiers didnt get up there and were then forced to get back onto a blue.

Also going up the Rangeley or the T there is no way to access America without first skiing a blue.

It was likely a black before too as they had the T bar which was not conduvice to beginners.
Def a unique situation...that is one thing I will say about Saddleback...they don't really have many green options once u get up off the lower/learning quad.
 

snowmonster

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I was at Mont Sutton for two days recently and it was AMAZING! There's not a trail there that would be described as a "cruiser" I dont think. The ratings aren't absurd, but the triple diamonds are certainly skiable by mortals. I'm an advanced intermediate (can survive a trail like ripcord at Mt. Snow when not too icy, though not with a lot o grace) I found the double black woods there challenging, but not as challenging for me as ripcord.

It seemed like the mountain had decided at some point to call its steepest "glades" double blacks, so when they opened up and named real "tree skiing" (not thinned as much as the glades) they needed a higher difficulty rating.

So are these runs actually extremely difficult, or are these absurd trail ratings?

On this thread: http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php/topic/15148-journee-de-ski-memorable-a-sutton/ Go to post 5 and there are a series of photos of Entonnior rated <><><> at Sutton which looks not too difficult sort of a narrow windy one.

Here is what I can find of "Bou-Bou", one of the <><><> at Sutton.. looks like fun to me but nothing beyond the scope of a usual double diamond. This place looks like a ton of fun to ski though.

La Charlevoix is somewhat comparable to Paradise at MRG. it skis more like an area then a trail. It can be anything from steep wide open trees to rocky chutes and cliffs into tight hardwoods. It can get pretty hairy in some places but everything can pretty much be avoided. I guess it could be called an "eastern" double but to call it a triple is a joke.
Thank you, gents, for the scouting reports on Mont Sutton and Le Massif. I'm definitely hitting Quebec this season.

If I do ski north of the border, special thanks go to the Quebec tourism bureau for sending such charming and delightful ski ambassadors to the Boston ski show. Ooo la la.:-D
 

BenedictGomez

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Thank you, gents, for the scouting reports on Mont Sutton and Le Massif. I'm definitely hitting Quebec this season.

Make sure you have a passport or an enhanced ID

My prez weekend plan includes Mont Sutton as a holiday avoidance strategy. Wanted to do it last year but my gf's family didn't have passports, so we stuck to Jay Peak.
 
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MadMadWorld

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^
pics plz

Wish I had one for you. Tried to find one online but they only show the easiest area of La Charlevoix (I believe there are 4 marked entrances). I know the further skiers right you go, the harder it gets. Sorry I couldn't be more help.
 

Highway Star

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I agree with the Big Emma one. I think it is so Snowbird can get to say they have the "most difficult green in North America" (actually heard that from ski instructors there). Another ridiculous one at Snowbird: the "easy way out" if you don't want to take Big Emma is called Snowcat Access, it is rated double black diamond. If you ski all the way to the right on big emma, you get to two "experts only" access gates. The run itself is sloped gently like a steeper green and probably 15-20 feet wide. The reason for its rating is that the run has a cliff on the left, and it does not offer much room to slow down. Were beginners to actually take the trail they would either fly off the cliff or crash into those exiting the Wilbere lift at the end of the short trail.

LOL. I have to call BS on this one. It's a cat track with a short 35-40 degree pitch off the trail to the skiers left. Not a dangerous cliff.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=snowb...oid=bqm24fBpEckXWymkTuLj8A&cbp=12,291.61,,0,0

Great Northern at Killington has a spot with a simliar drop off, it's not marked and I'm suprised people don't fall off it more often, though we do ski it.
 

gregnye

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Upper Northstar at Loon---definitely should not be a black. It is just a narrower blue under the kanc chair.

I heard that the only reason it is a black is because it was made before the East Basin, North Peak and South Peak were developed, and Loon was desperate for "black diamonds". It does not compare to the difficulty of say Big Dipper or Triple Trouble, Jobber or Twitcher.


Oh yah, and "Hairball" at Wildcat should be a double diamond--not a single! It has way more cliffs than any other black on that mountain (excluding the rocks on Starr Line).

I have gone down all the other blacks at Wildcat, but still can't work up courage for Hairball---it looks that bad--someday though!
 

MadPatSki

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Wish I had one for you.

I might be mistaken, but it sounded like he was referring to the girl(s?) from the Quebec Tourist board mentioned by snowmonster.


Tried to find one online but they only show the easiest area of La Charlevoix (I believe there are 4 marked entrances). I know the further skiers right you go, the harder it gets. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

There are a few entrances. It probably triple black because you don't get many steep groomers that are water injected in the East. The run was/is used to train downhill from the Canadian Development team. Not saying it should or shouldn't be 3 black, its just an observation.
 

MadMadWorld

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I might be mistaken, but it sounded like he was referring to the girl(s?) from the Quebec Tourist board mentioned by snowmonster.






There are a few entrances. It probably triple black because you don't get many steep groomers that are water injected in the East. The run was/is used to train downhill from the Canadian Development team. Not saying it should or shouldn't be 3 black, its just an observation.

Lol good catch. In that case.....me too!
 

deadheadskier

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Oh yah, and "Hairball" at Wildcat should be a double diamond--not a single! It has way more cliffs than any other black on that mountain (excluding the rocks on Starr Line).

I have gone down all the other blacks at Wildcat, but still can't work up courage for Hairball---it looks that bad--someday though!

The issue with Hairball is typically lack of base. When it's filled in, it's not too difficult. It's probably still the most difficult trail on the mountain though.
 

redwinger

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If Cannon had Doubles I'd say Tramline should be one. Thing is narrow and hairy!
 

BeefyBoy50

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LOL. I have to call BS on this one. It's a cat track with a short 35-40 degree pitch off the trail to the skiers left. Not a dangerous cliff.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=snowb...oid=bqm24fBpEckXWymkTuLj8A&cbp=12,291.61,,0,0

Yeah, you caught me exaggerating a little bit. However, it does get deeper and steeper the closer you get to Wilbere Chair, and whether it is a cliff or simply a short, heavily treed, 35-40˚ pitch doesn't really matter to the beginner who is falling down it which I guess is why they marked it this way. It's the most efficient way to get back from Gad Valley to the tram and peruvian though so if it wasn't as dangerous I'm sure it would be one of the most highly used trails on the mountain.
 

Puck it

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The issue with Hairball is typically lack of base. When it's filled in, it's not too difficult. It's probably still the most difficult trail on the mountain though.


Imho, there are no blacks at Wildcat that trails. I like the mountain, but it is pretty shallow on the steepness chart.
 

MadMadWorld

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Imho, there are no blacks at Wildcat that trails. I like the mountain, but it is pretty shallow on the steepness chart.

If that's the case then there are a TON of mountains that would only have beginner and intermediate terrain....including Cannon. Starr Line, Top Cat, Feline, Al's Folly, Hairball all have steep section and offer some of the most technical skiing out there because of all the obstacles and Wildcats lax policy about leaving its advanced terrain open. Throw in T Brook and you have tons of choices
 

Puck it

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If that's the case then there are a TON of mountains that would only have beginner and intermediate terrain....including Cannon. Starr Line, Top Cat, Feline, Al's Folly, Hairball all have steep section and offer some of the most technical skiing out there because of all the obstacles and Wildcats lax policy about leaving its advanced terrain open. Throw in T Brook and you have tons of choices


Agree, but the sustained pitch is just not there at Wildcat with their trails. I did not say Glades, T Brook is a damn good trail.
 

deadheadskier

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Imho, there are no blacks at Wildcat that trails. I like the mountain, but it is pretty shallow on the steepness chart.

Agreed the mountain isn't that steep, but tell me where Hairball would be a Blue? Jackson Hole?

hairball2.jpg

Hairball.jpg
 

Puck it

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Agreed the mountain isn't that steep, but tell me where Hairball would be a Blue? Jackson Hole?

View attachment 7284

View attachment 7285
It Is the best trail on the mountain when there is good coverage, but I just don't think the pitch is there. Cannon trails are not that steep either except for steepest of the front five and Tramline. Glades are a different story though.
 
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