US Ski Tickets 2005-2006

[skibum1321]

one more observation that you hit on billski but i wanted to further develop. it almost seems like an inverse relationship between high saturday lift ticket prices and season pass prices. several locations that have high lift ticket prices for what they offer (WaWa, ASC, Booth Creek, etc.) all have very low season passes. whereas places with a good value and a lower ticket price (the cannons, burkes, mrg's, altas, etc.) all have much higher season prices than the areas with more expensive day ticket prices. i wonder how that would look on a graph? :lol: not that this research is for naught, it is EXCELLENT, but i wonder if the ski industry has already done this type of research and doesn't want us to see it :-?

It seems like the inverse relationship is true for alot of cases but there are certainly some outliers. For example, Sugarbush is $67 a day and $1000+ for a season pass. Stowe clearly follows this same mentality - high price for season pass and day ticket. It does hold true for Smuggs, though, with a $58 day ticket and $429 season pass.

 

[billski]

where did you get that information...some of it is incorrect. The steamboat lift tickets are $74 regular and $76 for holiday season rather than the $60 you have in that list. I didn't check any others, just know steamboats because i live out here.

The information came directly from each resort's website. Please confirm that the information on their website is incorrect and I will then change it in my table.

 

[billski]

billski and RivercOil, you both make many excellent points. I look forward to seeing your results. I'm sure that a lot those MBA's who set those prices will be looking at your report as well! Some of them may even learn something!
Some important points that you both brought out are:
1. Multi day tickets and packages are often MUCH less expensive than day tickets. For example;
a. Last season skied at KMart. Three adults, three days lift tickets, one lesson each, and three nights in a one bedroon condo for $750.00.
b. Skied Plattekill with my son. Stayed at a partner hotel so my son skied for free. Total price for one nights lodging including breakfast and two lift tickets about $160.00
c. Skied 22 times last year. Not including my sons ski club nights, I bought about 36 tickets total. Paid for TWO full price tickets, one time for two people.
2. Rating the overall value of any ski area is hard to do! Verticle? Miles of trails? Acreage? Natural vs. Manmade snow? Lifts? It's sort of like setting up the BCS ranking program! And we all know how well that worked!
I skied all 450 verticle feet of Big Boulder one Sat. night last year and had one of my best ski outings all season for $17.00! OK maybe not THE best, but for $17.00 maybe the best value.

Good points.

You are not the first person to brag that you almost never paid full price for a ticket. I commend and encourage that sort of behavior. The daily window ticket price comparison is just a baseline study of the economies of each are. When you see a high window price, brace yourself when you get there.

My wife likes to cost out the total "door to door" experience, since she pays the bills. The food and alcohol bill along with rentals, forgotten gear expenditures, really adds up fast.


More points

a. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That's why we need several columns of criteria so everyone can sort it they way they value the experience.

b. Beauty is also a result of subjective things - scenery, difficulty in driving, convenience of amenities, etc. etc. Very difficult to quantitatively measure those things.

c. Another metric I might consider putting in proximics to a major population center. Wachusett justifies their price because you are paying for the convenience of being an hour away from a major metro area.

d. Any MBA worth his/her salt already has put together this table and then some to justify their business case. They won't be needing any data from me. I'm just doing this for yucks when I can't be on the slopes and don't plan to "sharpen the pencil" too far.

e. Lift ticket pricing is a very competitive thing, even if you only compete with 2 other areas. That's why you won't see the lift prices posted (though some leak out) early.

Lastly, I will also guarantee you that representatives from most major market resorts have lurkers on this and every other mail list and discussion board. They are discrete enough to never say a thing. Often times, they are looking for competitive information. For the most part, they are NOT interested in what you and I say - we are a very niche market, and not a very profitable niche at that.


Bill

 

[billski]

I would like to ask your help in a brief marketing study. This is called the "bread basket" or "market basket" sample. As you go rest and recover in the lodges this year, note the prices on the following items and report back.

a. Cheeseburger (no extras)
b. French Fries (smallest size available)
c. Soda (Large)
d. Beer (national brand, not a premium brand)
e. Chapstick/lip balm
f. Cheapest goggles
g. Candy bar (regular size)

I think you'll be amazed when you compare resort-to-resort.

 

[billski]

season passes

one more observation that you hit on billski but i wanted to further develop. it almost seems like an inverse relationship between high saturday lift ticket prices and season pass prices. several locations that have high lift ticket prices for what they offer (WaWa, ASC, Booth Creek, etc.) all have very low season passes. whereas places with a good value and a lower ticket price (the cannons, burkes, mrg's, altas, etc.) all have much higher season prices than the areas with more expensive day ticket prices. i wonder how that would look on a graph? :lol: not that this research is for naught, it is EXCELLENT, but i wonder if the ski industry has already done this type of research and doesn't want us to see it :-?

It seems like the inverse relationship is true for alot of cases but there are certainly some outliers. For example, Sugarbush is $67 a day and $1000+ for a season pass. Stowe clearly follows this same mentality - high price for season pass and day ticket. It does hold true for Smuggs, though, with a $58 day ticket and $429 season pass.

Pricing season passes depends a lot on your market. Again, it comes down to captive or non-captive audiences. Wachusett markets its passes to day-trippers (non-captive.) Stowe and the Bush market their pass to captive audiences, primarily those who own or long-term rent property nearby. If you can afford to buy real estate at Stowe, you can afford a high-price pass. Oh, and the heck with the locals - they may be a captive audience, buy they are money-losers.

For certain mountain areas, locals can ski cheaper during certain periods. They don't do this to be nice. It's all about good PR.

 

[billski]

Oh, and by the way, when you're considering pricing remember this:

More than 80% of "never-evers" (those who try skiing or boarding for the first time), never come back.

 

[riverc0il]

regarding pricing of beer, i was SHOCKED that a Otter Creek from the tap only costed $4 at stowe in the lodge. practically beside myself. i would expect to pay the same price in a bar in boston, i would think they would have higher prices as a core component of a ski areas' clients come from the metro areas and are used to paying that sort of price. whereas a burger and fries is $10 without beverage. that doesn't make sense to me quite frankly. why not be more reasonable with the food and gouge at the bar? honestly, if you want a brew at the end of the day, you'll pay $5-6 for a quality beer. but i generally brown bag it intentionally because of prices. whereas the beer price i find reasonable since it is what i am used to, so i spend money at the bar.

 

[thetrailboss]

Why charge more for a burger and fries? Captive audience and larger market. It is well established that ski area food is more expensive on the whole.

 

[BeanoNYC]

What's the cheapest?

 

[riverc0il]

Why charge more for a burger and fries? Captive audience and larger market. It is well established that ski area food is more expensive on the whole.

yes, that is indeed the current market attitude and i know this very well. i was implying ski areas could pick up on increased sales despite lower margins by making prices more reasonable. i would never pack a cold sandwich lunch if i could get a nice hot meal for $6-7 at the ski area. i think the trend will be more and more brown baggers as food prices continue to soar way out of control. where else does food cost this much? you could get a more reasonably priced meal at a ball game. you don't have a captive audience if they refuse to buy.

 

[billski]

mistake

regarding pricing of beer, i was SHOCKED that a Otter Creek from the tap only costed $4 at stowe in the lodge. practically beside myself. i would expect to pay the same price in a bar in boston, i would think they would have higher prices as a core component of a ski areas' clients come from the metro areas and are used to paying that sort of price. whereas a burger and fries is $10 without beverage. that doesn't make sense to me quite frankly. why not be more reasonable with the food and gouge at the bar? honestly, if you want a brew at the end of the day, you'll pay $5-6 for a quality beer. but i generally brown bag it intentionally because of prices. whereas the beer price i find reasonable since it is what i am used to, so i spend money at the bar.

Must be a mistake. That won't last long Maybe the barkeep thought it was sodapop....

 

[trackbiker]

see, this type of forumula doesn't add up to a frugal day trip skier because you are looking at free lodging as a 'bargain.' that price breaks down to $250 per person for three days skiing which equals out to a lift ticket full price plus a lesson for three days with lodging thrown in for free. this type of setup is very important for people driving long distance (looks like you are from PA and can not day trip to new england easily, so that works GREAT for you). but for myself, last season, i got in over 30 days skiing at ski areas for less than that price. this season i will likely get in over 40 days again for less than that price. granted that is not paying full price for pretty much any skiing during the year due to early season discounts, special days, bulk purchases, and season pass. but still, ski areas often justify high weekend lift ticket prices by point out their cheap multi-day ski and stay packages, and for someone that just wants to ski cheap, being offered (what is essentially) free lodging just to pay an inflated and very expensive lift ticket rate doesn't add up!

I understand what you saying and that the ski areas look at day trippers and destination skiers differently. But for me, the "free lodging" is a very good value! It would be for you as well if you were going out west or to Europe. Like billski's wife, I look at the overall cost. If either of us went to the beach for three days we'd pay at least that much just for the lodging. So $83.33/person per day including lift tickets is a good value. And that's in a condo with a fireplace and a kitchen, not a standard hotel room.
But again, like for you in VT, someone from Baltimore or DC looks at the ski packages in PA and sees a good deal. They mean nothing to me for one days skiing.
Here's another way to look at it even for a daytripper: If you ski three times and make a 3 or 4 hour round trip each time, you're spending money on gas for two more round trips than someone who stays over. If you use $40.00 more in gas (and that's at a 300 mi. round trip at 30 mi./gal.), that's equivalent to $13.33/trip. Plus, what's your time worth? Plus the 1/3 of an oil change, and wear and tear on the car. You have to deduct those cost from the total costs to find your real cost per day of skiing for three consectutive days. Or add them to your costs for three non consectutive days to get a real "apples to apples" comparison of cost per skiing day.

 

[riverc0il]

yea, like i said in my post, people from further away need to look for ski and stay packages to make the trip worth while.

the other factor is that i am a solo skier generally and hotels always require double occupency, so i never even both looking at ski and stay packages because the prices would be doubled for a solo skier. bunk houses rule, i'll sleep any where for $15 a night cause that used to be a round trip worth of gas for me, so that was worth it.

 

[ctenidae]

An interesting dynamic might be lift tickets vs average "Best of" ratings from magazines, etc. I'd be willing to bet on a pretty strong positive correlation (though not, perhaps, as strong as the correlation between ratings and advertising dolalrs spent)

 

[trackbiker]

yea, like i said in my post, people from further away need to look for ski and stay packages to make the trip worth while.

the other factor is that i am a solo skier generally and hotels always require double occupency, so i never even both looking at ski and stay packages because the prices would be doubled for a solo skier. bunk houses rule, i'll sleep any where for $15 a night cause that used to be a round trip worth of gas for me, so that was worth it.

I understand completely where you are coming from. I did the backpack/railpass thing in Europe twice when I was younger. Night trains were great. Free place to sleep. More money for beer and food!
Just wait until you have a steady girlfriend who skis; that bunkhouse thing will change real fast! :lol:
And that's not necessarily a bad thing!

 

[thetrailboss]

Well, turns out that WCAX has this article today about ski areas touting higher ticket prices :roll: as a selling point...like we discussed.

My thanks to Betsy at NELSAP for point this out.

 

[billski]

Well, turns out that WCAX has this article today about ski areas touting higher ticket prices :roll: as a selling point...like we discussed.

My thanks to Betsy at NELSAP for point this out.

Interesting article. I think we are seeing the market fragment in to more more than "big resorts", "family resorts" and "feeder hills". The fact that a resort choses to deliberately exclusify itself shows the making of a "luxury" brand of skiing. We also see the emergence of private, membership-only resorts.

This is unlike the times when I grew up with skiing, where there was a continium of mountains a-la, small, medium and large. Pricing generally matched in a somewhat linear fashion. With this break-away from the pack behavior, you will see self-selection by skiers. Like a monied country club versus versus the town golf course right down the street.

The multi-day discount argument does not necessarily make the cost of your stay much cheaper. You have to look at the total experience cost: lodging, food, rentals, etc., which clearly will have greater costs all around and may obfuscate any lift ticket savings.

There's going to be a lot more discussion about this in the years to come.

Interesting article in Forbes about the world's most expensive ski areas, http://tinyurl.com/8hd2h Actually, it's more about room rates than actual mountain infrastructure.

 

[trackbiker]

Interesting article. I think we are seeing the market fragment in to more more than "big resorts", "family resorts" and "feeder hills". The fact that a resort choses to deliberately exclusify itself shows the making of a "luxury" brand of skiing. We also see the emergence of private, membership-only resorts.

This is unlike the times when I grew up with skiing, where there was a continium of mountains a-la, small, medium and large. Pricing generally matched in a somewhat linear fashion. With this break-away from the pack behavior, you will see self-selection by skiers. Like a monied country club versus versus the town golf course right down the street.

The multi-day discount argument does not necessarily make the cost of your stay much cheaper. You have to look at the total experience cost: lodging, food, rentals, etc., which clearly will have greater costs all around and may obfuscate any lift ticket savings.

There's going to be a lot more discussion about this in the years to come.

Interesting article in Forbes about the world's most expensive ski areas, http://tinyurl.com/8hd2h Actually, it's more about room rates than actual mountain infrastructure.

Good points.
The question that I have is; where are the skiers of the future going to come from? Most of us on this site originally were introduced to skiing at a small, affordable area.
Are the "elite" areas sacraficing the future for the profits of today? Skiing visits in the U.S. are flat or in a decline.
I have no problem paying for value. But if I can get the same thing at a reduced price, why wouldn't I?
I'm trying to figure out this new economy. I run a small business and my customers argue over pennies. Then I put the same products on ebay and people pay 2 to 3 times the price, plus shipping! Then I see someone buy from a competitor at an even higher price. I guess that it was the first thing that they clicked on and the price didn't matter.
I guess that ski areas have figured out that some people will pay the most just to show that they could. I'm trying to figure out how to find those customers in my business!
I equate it to Starbucks. Starbucks makes a hell-of-a good cup of coffee! It is a $2.00 cup of coffee vs. a $1.00 cup of coffee as far as quality and cost goes. But they have people lining up to pay $3.00 I think that is called "skimming the cream off of the top".

 

[riverc0il]

The question that I have is; where are the skiers of the future going to come from? Most of us on this site originally were introduced to skiing at a small, affordable area.

i don't see those areas going away. they certainly are not going away in the northeast. if anything, new england is currently enjoying an enjoyable period of time in which some smaller defunct ski areas are coming back to life. the small hills serving as community learning centers will always be there because they have a captive local audience. it are those mid-sized bargain ski areas i would worry most about that are getting lost in the big corporate shuffle of elite resorts. the luxery market will always have a dependable customer base as long as we have an upper class. fine by me, those folks can have their elitist crappy boring resorts. i'll have my great terrain and cheaper price.

 

[billski]

boarders

The other interesting dynamic in all of this is that, simply put, snowboarders are saving these industry - resorts, equipment, lodging, etc. Attendance by skiers is generally flat to declining, depending on the resort. Boarder attendance is growing spectacularly. Often, there are more boarders in lessons than skiers.
So now you need to look at their behavior and determine how many boarders will be interested in elite resorts. Most boarders are under 30-ish and have a generally different attitude about money, life, etc. than older skiers. Will that change? I think this is another one where the jury is out.

For now, I think the elite areas will focus on the older monied demographic. That generally means skiers. But what happens as they age? Are they gonna keep their $1M condo?

It's going to be an interesting couple of decades to come. Till then, we have to keep "ducking under the rope", finding angles to work to get to the good stuff. That's why I like forums like this. compare notes, share tips, get new angles.