VAIL SUCKS

[EPB]

For anybody under 30, the price is nearly double

Yeah that's a temporary problem for you. You'll be in your 30s before you know it.

 

[icecoast1]

Yeah that's a temporary problem for you. You'll be in your 30s before you know it.

I'm not too worried about the extra few hundred dollars, if I end up getting the pass next year. My only point was not everybody benefited from the big passes. The under 30 crowd saw their passes go up considerably

 

[EPB]

My brother's in your boat. I used to be not too long ago.

 

[deadheadskier]

T

The market looks ahead not where you are or have been, the market sees growth ahead For vail. I would like new spending at attitash and wildcat also, does wildcat have water issues? Do you think vail will expand ski acreage at attitash? The west bowl expansion at Sunapee is needed, wonder if that gets delayed due to gm bartels leaving Sunapee for Mt snow?

Per conversations with prior GM at Cat, while the pond is small, it fills rapidly. It's air and pumping capacity that's the limiting factor. They only cover probably 140 acres of terrain and it often takes them to mid-late January to finish the job. It was also labor issues. They shared some of the team with Attitash, so there were many days the past several years that it was plenty cold to blow at Cat and the guns weren't on.

I'd say terrain expansion at Attitash is doubtful. It's almost all on USFS land, so permitting would be costly and take a long time. I think they have plenty of terrain as is. Problem is the best of it takes a 16 minute ride to access.

I don't have a ton of insight into Sunapee. Only started really skiing there somewhat regularly last season.

 

[deadheadskier]

Before COVID, I would have been very surprised if the summit triple at Attitash weren't addressed next summer. It's unbecoming of a "Vail Resort". Given the insane lines I've seen posted online at the main base at Mt. Snow, I would have been surprised if a Carinthia 6-pack with Carinthia going to Sunbrook (or just a new Sunbrook) weren't a 1-2 year from now event, too. There was a post on liftblog saying that Vail either got or re-applied for West Bowl approval (can't remember which) in the last few weeks. Doesn't mean its imminent per se.

Other than Stowe, I don't think Vail has done anything to show they're not serious about upgrading their east coast resorts. Stowe is also in pretty good shape in the grand scheme of things, too (on mountain; by east coast standards). That said, I wouldn't predict much of anything happening in the next 5 years, to your point.

Stowe definitely needs more uphill capacity on the Forerunner side. I'd replace the mountain triple with a HSQ at minimum. Other than that, very little is needed there except maybe expansion of the Midway lodge

 

[thebigo]

I

like vail, like mr. Katz, not sure why the complaints, like alterra also, like the Indy pass, like where skiing is headed, people are so negative, guess people aren’t happen unless they can complain about something, does any one really what to go back to a 2k season pass that’s only good at one mountain, I am so glad vail changed skiing.

Not being open and the waiting room are both unfortunate but understandable if they would simply communicate. I was out hiking with my kids this afternoon, constantly checking my phone to make sure I was home for week of ticket release, in the event wildcat was released. That is ridiculous, they have an idea when it will open but refuse to tell us.

If it is that they want polecat on opening day, or two mountains or there was a snowmaking failure; just give us some clue. We have lived through 2020, we can handle bad news but asking us to live our life around their waiting room is insulting.

And how on earth do they not have a standard pass for young kids. This blows my mind that not only do they lack a fixed approach, the customer service people have no idea how to answer the question.

These are not superpass or corporate ownership issues, they are vail issues. I registered for this forum 15 years ago to ask attitash a question. I wanted to know if they would note race closures closures on illusion and avenger because on hard fast days race closures made the extra drive to SR worth it. They were the original corporate superpass, they answered the question and made the change. Vail wont even give us a snow report.

 

[Cobbold]

Wha

I'm not too worried about the extra few hundred dollars, if I end up getting the pass next year. My only point was not everybody benefited from the big passes. The under 30 crowd saw their passes go up considerably

what was the price of the under 30 pass at peaks?

 

[thebigo]

I'd say terrain expansion at Attitash is doubtful. It's almost all on USFS land, so permitting would be costly and take a long time. I think they have plenty of terrain as is. Problem is the best of it takes a 16 minute ride to access.

The single terrain improvement at attitash is beginner terrain. Attitash is terrible for beginers, wildcat is decent but many staying at attitash will not make the drive. Not sure where you would put it though.

 

[Cobbold]

Wha

what was the price of the under 30 pass at peaks?

Looked up the drifter pass it was 399, northeast value pass is 629, plus you get more mtns, Stowe okemo Sunapee for 230 bucks more per year, and I am sure drifter pass wouldn’t be 399 this year, probably fifty bucks more, one thing I liked about peak passs, they gave a discount at the ski shop , wish vail would add that

 

[Cobbold]

The single terrain improvement at attitash is beginner terrain. Attitash is terrible for beginers, wildcat is decent but many staying at attitash will not make the drive. Not sure where you would put it though.

Vail has a lot of experience working with the forest service so I am sure then can get thru as quickly as possible, my guess vail has a unit that works just with the forest service

 

[drjeff]

For anybody under 30, the price is nearly double

Anyone over 18, but under 30, that's roughly the case. Teenagers are basically the same

 

[Newpylong]

Per conversations with prior GM at Cat, while the pond is small, it fills rapidly. It's air and pumping capacity that's the limiting factor. They only cover probably 140 acres of terrain and it often takes them to mid-late January to finish the job. It was also labor issues. They shared some of the team with Attitash, so there were many days the past several years that it was plenty cold to blow at Cat and the guns weren't on.

I'd say terrain expansion at Attitash is doubtful. It's almost all on USFS land, so permitting would be costly and take a long time. I think they have plenty of terrain as is. Problem is the best of it takes a 16 minute ride to access.

I don't have a ton of insight into Sunapee. Only started really skiing there somewhat regularly last season.

BH certainly would have known best. They also have limited power from what I have been told, one reason the booster station is all diesels. Their water pumping capacity is woefully inadequate I believe about 2,000 GPM. A mountain with that much acreage should be triple that. Not only that, besides the core sections of pipe they replaced a few years back, the entire place is old rotting victaulic pipe. They can't even make snow on any expert trails due to both capacity and condition issues.

Attitash needs that triple gone yesterday.

Ragged is going to open first in NH, that tells us where Vail's NH properties rank in priority.

 

[Cobbold]

BH certainly would have known best. They also have limited power from what I have been told, one reason the booster station is all diesels. Their water pumping capacity is woefully inadequate I believe about 2,000 GPM. A mountain with that much acreage should be triple that. Not only that, besides the core sections of pipe they replaced a few years back, the entire place is old rotting victaulic pipe. They can't even make snow on any expert trails due to both capacity and condition issues.

Attitash needs that triple gone yesterday.

Ragged is going to open first in NH, that tells us where Vail's NH properties rank in priority.

 

[Cobbold]

Heard Brian Fairbanks from jiminy peak on the storm skier podcast, and this was about Brodie, but he said you need at least 3000 gpm in today’s snowmaking world so 2k is below par.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Probably why BG sees Vail ending in financial ruin.

I wrote a full page, War & Peace post on that theory a few years back. lol

Short version I've seen this story several times prior in my life & it never ends well. A company "revolutionizing" its' industry, with a "brilliant CEO all-star" with "unique" attributes and qualities. I see Vail no differently than any other large corporate, numerous bolt-on acquisitions that are immediately accretive to earnings, rinse & repeat, with an ungodly pile of debt. Turns out the CEO isnt so "brilliant", the low-hanging fruit acquisitions end & you run out of crap to buy, then you start over-paying for acquisitions, then your aggressive accounting tricks run dry, you've raised all prices to their absolute max, you start pissing off your loyal customers, and the debt bomb eventually explodes.

EDIT: I almost bought puts last week when it was at $283, but they're too thinly traded & expensive. But I'll be very interested in the next 10Q,, because it will be our first apples-to-apples look at Vail YoY comps without an acquisition to muddy things up (SKIS closed 3Q19).

 

[JimG.]

How? Best guess is you don't fit into the 30-65 age bracket or whatever "full price adult" is these days.

Ha...as his next post confirms.

I much prefer season pass to mean unlimited and unhassled access to one mountain. If COVID really does set back Vail's plans 5 years I think eastern skiers will wake up and realize how bad the megapass deal really is.

 

[da-bum]

For anybody under 30, the price is nearly double

I use to regularly buy an adult midweek pass at Hunter, when Peak took over, the price went up over 30%, and now Vail took over, there is another jump close to 40%. The price almost doubled from the Hunter price. It offered skiing in Mt Snow, but they opened only one week longer that Hunter and I wasn't going to make that long trip for the very tail end of spring skiing. I contemplated about switching to Windham, given how infrequently Peak groomed the Northern terrain that turned to ice, but their terrain is just not that challenging and their midweek pass was so much more than the Peak pass (not anymore). I thought about skipping this season or go infrequently until they offered the use it or lose it credit for closing early last season, along with the reservation option.

Strangely, the Vail Northeast Value pass is priced not much more than a midweek pass, unlike the old days where full pass was alot more than midweek pass. They probably priced the full pass so that midweek skiers would be tempted to buy the full pass for only a bit more (although with the crowd, I don't think I would want to ski on any weekend), and for people who usually buys consecutive day passes as their vacation, they could spend a bit more and opt for the Value pass (even more so now with the ability to reserve your dates in advance).

 

[ss20]

Heard Brian Fairbanks from jiminy peak on the storm skier podcast, and this was about Brodie, but he said you need at least 3000 gpm in today’s snowmaking world so 2k is below par.

Jimminy Peak's system is probably on-par with many of the major mountains in the East. They can blow an absolute metric crapload of snow at once now. They added a new pond up top 15 years ago, and another new one 2ish years ago.

 

[Cobbold]

Since this is a vail sucks forum, was listening to the gm of saddleback ski resort and he brought up alterra/ikon and vail/epic a few times, made me think they at some point want to sell to one of those two at some point. Would be harder for ikon since they have a relationship with boyne resorts at sugarloaf and Sunday river, I think but not hundred percent sure, the owners of saddleback need to keep it for 10 years for tax purposes, not hundred percent sure of that though. Vail buying saddleback would certainly piss off a lot people,lol

 

[Cobbold]

Jimminy Peak's system is probably on-par with many of the major mountains in the East. They can blow an absolute metric crapload of snow at once now. They added a new pond up top 15 years ago, and another new one 2ish years ago.

Jiminy peak is well run