VAIL SUCKS

[BenedictGomez]

You’ve been guessing wrong since 2008, so I wouldn’t hold my breath.

Wrong about what?

 

[jaytrem]

Are the little bump hills money losers? I've been to almost all of theirs and they all see to pull in good crowds. Typically a lot less terrain to cover with snow. A few of them are the only game in town. So if you have a pass there, there is a good chance you'll vacation at their destination resorts. I would think those bumps might have more value than some of the bigger New England places.

 

[jimmywilson69]

I went to roundtop today at 430 and both lower lots were nearly full. The central PA places are not money losers

 

[drjeff]

Are the little bump hills money losers? I've been to almost all of theirs and they all see to pull in good crowds. Typically a lot less terrain to cover with snow. A few of them are the only game in town. So if you have a pass there, there is a good chance you'll vacation at their destination resorts. I would think those bumps might have more value than some of the bigger New England places.

There was a thing mentioned on the Storm Skiing Podcast with Stowe's GM this week where it was mentioned that for some of their small Michigan areas, if a person buys an Epic Day pass product, that if they use those days at a non Michigan Resort (say in CO or UT or Whistler) that they get the same number of days for "free" in Michigan... encourages travel outside of their local small areas

 

[jimmywilson69]

The take that they are going to "Shed" the "feeder" hills doesn't make sense. In PA they instantly loose TENS of THOUSANDS of pass holders from major metro areas. I'd love to know the numbers, but I bet even Roundtop does as many skier visits as say wildcat. If there is a 90 day season 100,000 is an average of 1,111 people per day. I'm sure that some weekdays Roundtop is not pulling 1000 visitors. Weekends a "comfortably busy" number is probably 3,000. Wed-Sun they are open 9 am -9 pm and there are plenty of people that go at night including with Maryland plates ( MD border is ~35 miles south). So those days they probably easily getto a 1000. Whitetail and Liberty are WAY busier on the weekends as they are closer to the DC Metro area.

If Vail "had to" shed these areas Alterra would swoop in and take those pass holders without thinking, just like Vail did. That'd be an amazing thing for me

I don't know anything about the mid-west areas, but as Dr J just pointed out, most of those people are programmed to go west to ski even more so than east coast skiers. I can drive to good east coast skiing to scratch the itch. If you live in the Midwest, you are flying to the Rockies. So I'm just not sure that the "feeder hills" are sucking the life out of Vail. Hell in a poor economy, they may even be propping it up.

 

[bigbob]

The take that they are going to "Shed" the "feeder" hills doesn't make sense. In PA they instantly loose TENS of THOUSANDS of pass holders from major metro areas. I'd love to know the numbers, but I bet even Roundtop does as many skier visits as say wildcat. If there is a 90 day season 100,000 is an average of 1,111 people per day. I'm sure that some weekdays Roundtop is not pulling 1000 visitors. Weekends a "comfortably busy" number is probably 3,000. Wed-Sun they are open 9 am -9 pm and there are plenty of people that go at night including with Maryland plates ( MD border is ~35 miles south). So those days they probably easily getto a 1000. Whitetail and Liberty are WAY busier on the weekends as they are closer to the DC Metro area.

If Vail "had to" shed these areas Alterra would swoop in and take those pass holders without thinking, just like Vail did. That'd be an amazing thing for me

I don't know anything about the mid-west areas, but as Dr J just pointed out, most of those people are programmed to go west to ski even more so than east coast skiers. I can drive to good east coast skiing to scratch the itch. If you live in the Midwest, you are flying to the Rockies. So I'm just not sure that the "feeder hills" are sucking the life out of Vail. Hell in a poor economy, they may even be propping it up.

With the poor snow conditions in parts of the west right now the east coast resorts may be provided Vail with much needed cash flow. Pays to be in multiple regions of the country.

 

[jaytrem]

So here's what we got for the smaller areas and day trip competition...

Crotched - Serves Boston Metro/NH - lots of competition.
Jack Frost/Big Boulder - Serves NJ/Eastern PA/Philly - lots of competition.
Roundtop/Liberty/Whitetail - Serves DC/Baltimore/Central PA - competition is non-existent.
Seven Springs/Hidden Valley/Laurel - Serves Pittsburg/Western PA - competition is not much, Blue Knob, Wisp if you want a longer drive.
Boston Mills/Brandywine/Alpine Valley - Serves Cleveland/Northest OH - competition is nothing other than a club owned area.
Mad River - Serves Columbus/Central OH - competition is non-existent.
Paoli Peak - Serves Louisville/Cincinnati/Indianapolis - competition is just Perfect North
Hidden Valley - Serve St. Louis - competition is non-existent.
Snow Creek - Serves KC - competition is non-existent unless you want to drive to Omaha.
Mt. Brighton - Serves Detroit/Southeast MI - lots of competition.
Wilmot - Serves Milwaukee/Chicago - lots of Milwaukee competition almost none in Illinois.
Afton Alps - Serves Minneapolis - lots of competition.

I'd say some of them benefit more from from having the destination areas on the same pass, while some of the destination areas benefit more from have the feeders on the same pass.

Examples:

I live is St. Louis and the only option is Hidden Valley, well, I might as well go to a Vail resort when I go on vacation.

I live in Detroit, I might as well go with a Mt. Brighton pass since it includes some Vail destination areas for my vacation.

So which areas in the whole US portfolio have the least value? I'm thinking Attitash and Wildcat. Seems like they know that and are putting in minimal effort there. Sunapee is always drawing big crowds from what I here. The VT areas are all big name. Crotched at least fits the feeder category. Hunter also a big name and can even fit the feeder category a bit, no doubt lots of day trippers there.

Out west I'd say Crested Butte and then Kirkwood, everything else is big big big name.

 

[oldfartrider]

I don’t see how you could say they are putting in minimal effort at Attitash. Two new chairlifts in 3 years is not minimum effort.

 

[jimmywilson69]

I think that comments is in regards to historical/non-vail operations.

 

[oldfartrider]

Look at the historical data on open/closing dates on Attitash. They are right inline or slightly better now. This year they opened top to bottom. They never did that in the old days.

 

[jaytrem]

I think that comments is in regards to historical/non-vail operations.

Yeah, the place is a shell of it's former self, especially in the summer. Summit chair was probably the number one in the entire company that needed to be replaced. So yeah, at least they did that.

 

[jaytrem]

Look at the historical data on open/closing dates on Attitash. They are right inline or slightly better now. This year they opened top to bottom. They never did that in the old days.

Hopefully they're putting in a good effort this year. Just seems like a LOT of negative reports over the last few years.

 

[pinion]

I don’t see how you could say they are putting in minimal effort at Attitash. Two new chairlifts in 3 years is not minimum effort.

Money != effort, but I agree that things are not as disastrous at Attitash as they are other mountains (especially Wildcat and Crotched). I'd argue the addition of snowmaking to Wilfred's was the best addition at Attitash under Vail's ownership. On the flip-side, late season opening and early season closing at Wildcat, in addition to their only lift servicing actual beginner terrain being down for a year now... ugh....

 

[jaytrem]

Look at the historical data on open/closing dates on Attitash. They are right inline or slightly better now. This year they opened top to bottom. They never did that in the old days.

Looks like they used to open in November a lot. I'm surprised they're not typically open for Thanksgiving.

Attitash Mountain Resort History - New Hampshire - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com

 

[oldfartrider]

You’re right they did open in November. The bunny hill. About 200ft of vert

 

[jaytrem]

You’re right they did open in November. The bunny hill. About 200ft of vert

Well why didn't you just say that rather than telling me to look it up? Anyway, I'm glad you're happy with the way Vail is running Attitash.

 

[AdironRider]

I don’t see how you could say they are putting in minimal effort at Attitash. Two new chairlifts in 3 years is not minimum effort.

Its just a handful of jaded old guys here complaining who don't understand the business side of the industry. The vast majority of the skiing public does not agree with the statement that Vail sucks. Very much the opposite, given the value proposition the Epic pass still provides.

Wildcat has never been a major player, despite what people say here, and their revenue / skier visits are reflective of that (regardless of vert). In the example of Attitash, their summer offerings were used up 20 years ago, let alone today, and the value proposition to replace them just isn't there from a business perspective, when you have to invest millions in ski related infrastructure (see new lifts as mentioned above). Never mind the whole idea that dumping small feeder hills goes against literally the entire business model. Its really quite laughable.

In regards to epic pass sales being down, take a look at basically any other outdoor industry post covid. Mtn bike sales literally plummeted compared to Epic sales being down barely 3%, and revenue is still increasing. Not many businesses fail when their revenue goes up, despite Benedict claiming their eminent demise for over a decade now.

 

[jaytrem]

Wayback machine strikes again.

Report Updated November 25, 2005

Current Conditions
Trails Open​	6 - one route + Snowbelt	Trails This Weekend​	6 - One route + Snowbelt
Lifts Open​	3 - Top Notch Double, Flying Yankee, Snowbelt	Lifts This Weekend​	3 - Top Notch Double, Flying Yankee, Snowbelt
Primary Surface​	packed powder	Secondary Surface​	packed powder
24-hr Snowfall​	"	Past Days Snow​	"
Grooming​		Snowmaking​	Moat, Lower Grandstand, Upper Highway, Turkey Chute, Tightrope, Snowbelt, Base Area.
Average Base Depth​	18-36 "	Summit Base Depth​	"
Miles of Skiing​		Acres of Skiing​

 

[machski]

Look at the historical data on open/closing dates on Attitash. They are right inline or slightly better now. This year they opened top to bottom. They never did that in the old days.

Sorry. Attitash is a blip of its former self under LBO/ASC days. Yes, Vail replaced the old Double double with a FGQ and finally replaced the summit cripple with a HSQ (badly needed since the ASC days but even Peaks at its peak did nothing there too). But set aside a few capital asset installations. Their terrain rollout and opening are all way dialed back from what it was. If it wasn't for the super expensive day pass prices, I would say no one would be going to Attitash right now. Not for 22 runs when you can easily double that at Bretton Woods/Cannon/Loon. Heck, you get more right now even at Waterville. Back at its height, that was not the case. Attitash pushed the rest of NH competition. Now they trail so far behind, it's obvious Vail could not care less.

 

[eatskisleep]

Sorry. Attitash is a blip of its former self under LBO/ASC days. Yes, Vail replaced the old Double double with a FGQ and finally replaced the summit cripple with a HSQ (badly needed since the ASC days but even Peaks at its peak did nothing there too). But set aside a few capital asset installations. Their terrain rollout and opening are all way dialed back from what it was. If it wasn't for the super expensive day pass prices, I would say no one would be going to Attitash right now. Not for 22 runs when you can easily double that at Bretton Woods/Cannon/Loon. Heck, you get more right now even at Waterville. Back at its height, that was not the case. Attitash pushed the rest of NH competition. Now they trail so far behind, it's obvious Vail could not care less.

Exactly. They HAD to replace the summit triple. It literally only spun a handful of days the previous season and people
Got stuck on it multiple times. Doing the bare minimum doesn’t mean they are doing a great job. Plenty of people in the MWV still hate Vail. Don’t let anyone fool you that it’s just people on this forum that don’t like Vail.

That being said, they ARE doing a lot better than the past few seasons. I am happy they are making improvements. But let’s not pretend Vail is some superstar that has come in and made skiing better in the MWV.