Vail's Big Northeast Improvements- 2022-2023

[deadheadskier]

Wow, they own four areas in NH, none with a lift less than 25 years old and their big improvement is a beginner fixed grip quad? They suck.

Pretty close to true. Sunapee has a couple that are barely less than 25. Were the fixed grip triple and quad at CM refurbished?

Your point rings true though. Their NH lift infrastructure is all getting old.

 

[PAabe]

The double doubles are kind of iconic but I guess it makes sense to want to be able to load groups larger than 2

 

[ne_skier]

Please be Big Squaw to reopen the upper mountain. Very unlikely, but would be great.

In the east at least I'm not aware of Vail operating any Yans outside of Mount Snow, so even if they don't plan on reinstalling one I don't think they would have much use for it parts-wise either. They could probably get a pretty good deal on Sundance. Of the lifts going out in the east, Sunbrook is the most likely to be reused. Wouldn't be surprised if Vail moved it over to Attitash to replace the East and West doubles.

 

[ne_skier]

The double doubles are kind of iconic but I guess it makes sense to want to be able to load groups larger than 2

Never been to Attitash but they do seem like cool lifts, double-doubles are one of the defining lift types of the 1970s before fixed-grip quads became mainstream. Tons of resorts nowadays however are replacing them, just due to how inefficient they are in the long run. Double the energy, double the staff, double the maintenance, etc. I knew that those lift's days were numbered but I'm surprised that Vail chose to replace those first instead of Summit. If push comes to shove I believe Flying Yankee serves all of its terrain if those lifts go down or can't keep up with the brunt of the traffic. Summit is Attitash's only summit access and has a history of breaking down mid-season

 

[ne_skier]

Were the fixed grip triple and quad at CM refurbished?

They were installed in 2003 and likely built around the late 80s-early 90s based on crossarm design. Anyone's guess...unless someone here knows more about those lifts than I do, which is likely.

 

[ss20]

In the east at least I'm not aware of Vail operating any Yans outside of Mount Snow, so even if they don't plan on reinstalling one I don't think they would have much use for it parts-wise either. They could probably get a pretty good deal on Sundance. Of the lifts going out in the east, Sunbrook is the most likely to be reused. Wouldn't be surprised if Vail moved it over to Attitash to replace the East and West doubles.

You rarely see Yans get re-installed because the towers are placed in poured cement, not bolted down like other modern lifts. PITA to move. Yes, SOME places have re-installed Yans but not nearly as many as other lift manufacturers.

@deadheadskier for his move to Big Squaw idea.

Sunbrook, on the other hand, will most certainly live on. I always thought moving Sunbrook to the double on Carinthia would be a great way to alleviate traffic off the Carinthia quad.

 

[PAabe]

I can't remember what other places do but Blue Mountain and Shawnee only have 1 person at the unload for both double doubles, and 1 person directing traffic at the bottom for the both of them, although you still need 2 people bumping. And a lot of the time only 1/2 need to be run, though I don't know if a double has significantly less power/maintenance costs than a quad. So I don't know that the economics are necessarily double as bad but I guess with a new lift and drive it will be more efficient than something old anyway.

Also obviously not the case for beginner lifts but Blue really cranks up the speed on their doubles sometimes, to the point where it can be just as fast to use those as their slowpoke detach lifts by the time you navigate the runout and wait in line. I think it is easier to load a fixed double at high speed than a fixed quad.

JF lifts are Borvig/Partek, almost identical to the ones at Shawnee and BB. Partek could possibly reinstall them or at least resell the parts other than the tandem towers. They have been installing, reinstalling, and refurbishing lifts slowly but steadily.

 

[deadheadskier]

What I could see happening at Attitash with replacing the double doubles is them also removing the learning center triple eventually. The learning center terrain slope it services isn't very good for it's intended purpose of a step up from the carpet. It's pretty steep for novices. Widening Councilors to Far Out would be a better option.

 

[PAabe]

So I was looking at lift blog a bit, turns out there are a fair number of Borvig/Partek double doubles around. Also, converting a fixed grip lift into a tandem fixed grip lift with shared towers has been done several times in the not too distant past including at Elk and Whiteface. I would be surprised if somewhere were to opt for that anymore over a detachable lift but I guess for shorter distances and capital investment/maintenance/reliability reasons it makes sense.

And Partek is definitely in the business of wheeling and dealing old Borvig lifts, there are far more Partek/Borvig lifts around than I realized.

 

[ss20]

So I was looking at lift blog a bit, turns out there are a fair number of Borvig/Partek double doubles around. Also, converting a fixed grip lift into a tandem fixed grip lift with shared towers has been done several times in the not too distant past including at Elk and Whiteface. I would be surprised if somewhere were to opt for that anymore over a detachable lift but I guess for shorter distances and capital investment/maintenance/reliability reasons it makes sense.

And Partek is definitely in the business of wheeling and dealing old Borvig lifts, there are far more Partek/Borvig lifts around than I realized.

You won't see too many more. Borvig has a really bad safety record the past decade on lifts that should not have failed that young. Sugarloaf Spillway and King Pine. Tussey Mountain PA. With these things you never know if it's maintenance or an inherent flaw but the Borvig name has been the one constant.

 

[urungus]

Finally, some investment in their eastern resorts, its too bad there is no replacement for the Attitash Summit Triple, because that lift has become sort of the poster child for Vails neglect. This year I am going to try to ski Hackett‘s Highway under the Stowe Mountain triple for first time, just in case they eff it up while installing new lift, like what happened at Gore recently.

 

[kingslug]

The 6 will definitely help Stowe..but is it going to start lower?? end higher? we shall see.

 

[deadheadskier]

The 6 will definitely help Stowe..but is it going to start lower?? end higher? we shall see.

The way it reads, lower. Seems like the base terminal and line corral is going to go in that little parking area lookers left of the Mansfield base lodge. So, it will basically be a flat walk from the lodge or parking lot to the base of the new chair.

 

[Pez]

When i went to stowe for the first time in years i was surprised they only still had the 1 hsq to the top, so this seems like a good idea.

the sundance / tumbleweed is probably due to the fac tthose two lifts are old. honestly don't think the new lift will be too crowded. there isn't much of a parking lot at the sundance base area. perhaps they are thinking of expanding in the years to come?

i get the sunbrook hsq, but i'm a little bummed. that's a nice place to get away to some throwback style skiing area. Wouldn't mind a small base lodge there with a deck for hanging out in the spring

 

[kingslug]

Too bad it won't also go to the top..but the quad is damn fast.

 

[xlr8r]

Wow, this was some unexpected big news with a lot to digest. Feels like we are back in the 90s again with another lift arms race taking place.

Stowe:
Mountain 6 - This upgrade is perfect for Stowe. It gives intermediates and park rats a lift of their own, will take significant pressure off of Fourrunner, and spread people out more on Mansfield. Also it eliminates the need to walk up the stairway from the Mansfield Lodge. Great upgrade, exactly what Stowe needs.

Mount Snow:
Sunbrook Express - Long overdue upgrade that should have happened 20 years ago. I bet the old quad gets reused somewhere, maybe at Attitash.
Sundance 6 - This will reduce lines on the main face, but I am afraid of how it will affect crowding on the trails. This will put even more people on Long John, which is already overcrowded. I wish they would just keep Tumbleweed and start the new lift where Sundance currently starts. Seems like Vail knows they need to reduce lift lines at Mount Snow as much as possible. I bet a Challenger replacement is coming soon on the North Face with either a quad or 6.

Attitash:
Thad's Choice Quad - An under the radar but greatly needed upgrade, and proof Vail recognizes New Hampshire exists. The Double Doubles were terrible as beginner lifts. The loading inside the building was difficult, and they frequently had emergency stops. They either ran at normal speed or stopped, I cannot recall them slowing down gently for loading beginners and kids. Not replacing the summit triple is a bad PR move as now everyone now knows we have at least 2 more season to live with the triple. Also I wonder if this quad will reduce the amount of days Flying Yankee is run even more.

Other Musings:
Sunapee gets no love, I bet Sunapee is going to be completely overcrowded this season and next. Even if they do not go ahead with the expansion, I would have expected them to replace Sunapee Express with a 6. Sunapee is in a similar overcrowded situation as Mount Snow.

Nothing at Crotched, Wildcat or Okemo. This is expected, Crotched and Wildcat really do not need any new lifts. Okemo, I bet they want to see how this years upgrades affect the mountain before adding more new lifts.

Looking at the West upgrades as well there seems to be 2 major things going on with the upgrades.
1- To reduce lift lines at all costs. They know they are selling more an more passes, and already crowded mountains are getting even more crowded. I think their goal is to reduce lines and lift times so that people get their skiing in in a shorter amount of time each day. Similar to what Wachusett implemented last year, the average skier does not need or use a full 8 hour ski day, in reality it is more like a 4 hour ski day.
2- The replacement of older detachables is happening rapidly. Just in this announcement, 5 older detachables are being replaced. More and more are going to go in the coming years and 6 packs have become the norm for new lift installs.

 

[Whitey]

Mount Snow:
I bet a Challenger replacement is coming soon on the North Face with either a quad or 6.

I spoke to some people who know what they are talking about with these lifts - it seems the issue with the North Face lifts is that because the base at North Face has no way to ski out of it (you have to take a lift to get out of there) there is some state/insurance/something requirement that there has to be 2 lifts out of there so the area can still be evacuated if one lift goes down.

I always figured that some day they would tear both of those old lifts out and install a HSQ. But I think it's more complicated than that. If they do a HSQ at North Face they would probably have to do something like the Beartrap lift - a short, lightly used lift that can take you up and out of that area and back to the main mountain. Probably something that dumps you out near where the Canyon lift ends. Or it may make more sense to just keep one of the two old North Face lifts running and install a HSQ. But those lifts are old and I think they are struggling with figuring this out as "just keep one of the old lifts going" isn't necessarily sustainable. So any lift upgrades at North Face will almost definitely have to be 2 new lifts, not just one.

 

[mbedle]

I can't figure out how they plan to lower the bottom terminal of the mountain triple to the small parking area beside the lodge. I guess they will relocate the tree-top adventure park and the power lines. Sucks to also see that parking lot disappear. The life alignment also puts the bottom terminal in the woods off the parking area, pretty close to the creek. Seems like a lot of additional work, to just remove the climb up the hill. The climb to the triple is not nearly as bad as the climb to the quad or using the stairs.

 

[xlr8r]

I spoke to some people who know what they are talking about with these lifts - it seems the issue with the North Face lifts is that because the base at North Face has no way to ski out of it (you have to take a lift to get out of there) there is some state/insurance/something requirement that there has to be 2 lifts out of there so the area can still be evacuated if one lift goes down.

I always figured that some day they would tear both of those old lifts out and install a HSQ. But I think it's more complicated than that. If they do a HSQ at North Face they would probably have to do something like the Beartrap lift - a short, lightly used lift that can take you up and out of that area and back to the main mountain. Probably something that dumps you out near where the Canyon lift ends. Or it may make more sense to just keep one of the two old North Face lifts running and install a HSQ. But those lifts are old and I think they are struggling with figuring this out as "just keep one of the old lifts going" isn't necessarily sustainable. So any lift upgrades at North Face will almost definitely have to be 2 new lifts, not just one.

I can't figure out how they plan to lower the bottom terminal of the mountain triple to the small parking area beside the lodge. I guess they will relocate the tree-top adventure park and the power lines. Sucks to also see that parking lot disappear. The life alignment also puts the bottom terminal in the woods off the parking area, pretty close to the creek. Seems like a lot of additional work, to just remove the climb up the hill. The climb to the triple is not nearly as bad as the climb to the quad or using the stairs.

When a new lift is put in on Northface, one of the existing lifts will remain as a backup for this reason. I bet Challenger gets replaced as it is a fully Yan lift and slightly older. Outpost would then be kept as the backup lift.

 

[ne_skier]

You won't see too many more. Borvig has a really bad safety record the past decade on lifts that should not have failed that young. Sugarloaf Spillway and King Pine. Tussey Mountain PA. With these things you never know if it's maintenance or an inherent flaw but the Borvig name has been the one constant.

To be fair, Spillway can be blamed more on the Sugarloaf maintenance staff rather than the manufacturer itself. Although they are classic lifts, Borvig weren’t exactly built to last at the same degree as Riblet and Hall lifts.