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Vermont Likely to Close 3 State Colleges

BenedictGomez

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Not really. I assume you're looking purely at NJ for the average numbers for professors at least? Because nationally at 4 year public schools the average is $129K and at 4 year privates it is only $137K.

Uhhhh...... I mean...... okay, I'll take your research as gospel.

So what?

That's still more than TWICE the salary of the average college graduate. And for what, for teaching 18th century Greek art? Gimme a frickin' break. It's insane.
 
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BenedictGomez

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since this thread was originally about VT, the average professor in VT is at $103K

You obviously dont realize how massively above normal wage that is for a college graduate in State of Vermont.

I'm taking your word on that $103k figure, but assuming that's true, it's TWICE the wage of the average college graduate Vermonter's salary.
 

cdskier

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Uhhhh...... I mean...... okay, I'll take your research as gospel.

So what?

That's still more than TWICE the salary of the average college graduate. And for what, for teaching 18th century Greek art? Gimme a frickin' break. It's insane.

You're missing the whole point that a full "professor" isn't an entry level job... Why should a recent college graduate make what someone with numerous years of experience is making (in ANY field)? What's the point of even comparing the two? The average Sr Director at company XYZ is going to make a heck of a lot more than a recent college graduate as well. So what?

I'm certainly not going to say every professor is worth it. But when you're talking about an average, that's including some of the science and engineering fields and not just "18th century Greek art". I'm perfectly fine with paying 100K plus to an engineering professor that knows their shit and has been teaching for years to get to that point.

Now if you want to compare tuition vs starting salaries of graduates to show how ridiculously excessive tuition is, then I'm all on board with that.
 

uphillklimber

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Maybe not directly but it allows them to recruit more students (not just athletic scholarship students) and build new buildings. Also a lot of the student players that do go pro give to these universities as alum.

Which brings us back to why is college so expensive, if they are raking money in with every endeavor?

I believe a realistic look at all the expenses would prove enlightening.

Take, for example, teacher salaries in SAD44 in Maine. This is the Bethel area, home to Sunday River and Mt Abrams. Many people here work at Sunday River, for less than 30K a year, if they get full time, year round status. Teacher positions are 60K a year. More if they have been here for a number of years. I don't begrudge them that, too much. They do have education loans to pay off, and if we don't pay that, they will find jobs elsewhere that will pay that. But each time a contract comes up, they feel entitled to a 3% annual raise. Doesn't matter what the economy does.

Take a look at your work history, who else has had a job that gave a consistent raise, every single year? I've years when I was told I was at the top on the pay chart for my position. If I wanted more, I needed to improve my position, which I was able to do sometimes, and other times, that was a pipe dream.

This is how we end up with $100,000.00 a year sanitation engineers (garbage men). It is a tough physical job, but if you were to hire a local trash pick up service for your house, would you pay the rates to support such pay? Or would you look for other trash pick up services?

The folks at UVM, IMO, should take a hard look at things, and get their expenses in order. These are some of the smartest minds in the state, they should stop using that brainpower to line their pockets, and instead, look at making UVM financially viable. I still have no sympathy for them.
 

deadheadskier

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Average rate of inflation since 1997 has been 2.1%. So, I don't find it unreasonable at all for teachers to ask for what essentially amounts to a .9% raise a year.

As for college tuition, I feel that much of the problem lies in students having too easy of access to loans. As with any loan, they should be provided only if a reasonable expectation can be made that the loan will be repaid. Perhaps tying the average salary five years post graduation associated with a particular degree should be considered before approving a loan. If the student's family wants to cover a $200k education for a theater degree, that's fine. But, providing a $200k loan for such a degree is not a good idea. Perhaps stricter loan requirements will force students and families to look at a college education as the business investment it should be viewed as.

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BenedictGomez

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You're missing the whole point that a full "professor" isn't an entry level job... Why should a recent college graduate make what someone with numerous years of experience is making (in ANY field)? What's the point of even comparing the two?

When I say "college graduate", and I quote those figures, I'm not talking about the pool of 22 year olds who just graduated & have no experience, I'm talking about the pool of everyone with a college degree. Not sure why you'd take it otherwise. Nevertheless, inflated teacher salaries is certainly part of the problem.
 
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uphillklimber

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Average rate of inflation since 1997 has been 2.1%. So, I don't find it unreasonable at all for teachers to ask for what essentially amounts to a .9% raise a year.
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Can't say I disagree with this. But is everyone in the state also getting the same raise? Or just public sector employees. I'd like to see public sector employees raises tied to the average of raises given to private sector employees of similar salary ranges.
 

deadheadskier

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Can't say I disagree with this. But is everyone in the state also getting the same raise? Or just public sector employees. I'd like to see public sector employees raises tied to the average of raises given to private sector employees of similar salary ranges.
That's very difficult to do and predict. Ultimately, it's the voters who decide if raises for public sector employees get approved or not. At least at the local level. They don't always get that raise and sometimes jobs are cut in schools and towns to meet budgets. So, in that sense, things are run like a business.

My position hasn't seen a raise in base salary in over ten years. You want to make more, you sell more. You want to sell more, you improve your skills.

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VTKilarney

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Average rate of inflation since 1997 has been 2.1%. So, I don't find it unreasonable at all for teachers to ask for what essentially amounts to a .9% raise a year.

As for college tuition, I feel that much of the problem lies in students having too easy of access to loans. As with any loan, they should be provided only if a reasonable expectation can be made that the loan will be repaid. Perhaps tying the average salary five years post graduation associated with a particular degree should be considered before approving a loan. If the student's family wants to cover a $200k education for a theater degree, that's fine. But, providing a $200k loan for such a degree is not a good idea. Perhaps stricter loan requirements will force students and families to look at a college education as the business investment it should be viewed as.

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This is on TOP of their step increases. Nobody should get a raise every single year that is .9% above inflation just because they exist and are still breathing.
 

deadheadskier

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This is on TOP of their step increases. Nobody should get a raise every single year that is .9% above inflation just because they exist and are still breathing.
Maybe in your town. Not mine. Teachers contracts are negotiated in three year blocks. Usually the first year has the highest increase and then years 2&3 less so.

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VTKilarney

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Maybe in your town. Not mine. Teachers contracts are negotiated in three year blocks. Usually the first year has the highest increase and then years 2&3 less so.

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Trust me. Your town has step increases for teachers. Any raises are on top of the step increases. I have no problem if raises keep the steps tracking with inflation, mind you. My own work contract has a built in annual adjustment for inflation. But you were content with raises above and beyond inflation every year. Big difference.
 

deadheadskier

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yes, I do not have a problem with an annual 1% raise above inflation for the teachers in my town. I think there is value in offering an incentive to hold onto our teachers as they become more experienced.

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BenedictGomez

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Elementary school teachers making $47,000 college professors making $187,000.

This is getting way off subject in a conflatey' way.
 

Dickc

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As for college tuition, I feel that much of the problem lies in students having too easy of access to loans. As with any loan, they should be provided only if a reasonable expectation can be made that the loan will be repaid. Perhaps tying the average salary five years post graduation associated with a particular degree should be considered before approving a loan. If the student's family wants to cover a $200k education for a theater degree, that's fine. But, providing a $200k loan for such a degree is not a good idea. Perhaps stricter loan requirements will force students and families to look at a college education as the business investment it should be viewed as.

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^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^
 

thetrailboss

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IIRC the highest paid professor at LSC when I was there was under 70k. I'm sure its gone up a little bit but still very low compared to almost anywhere else. Unfortunately for whatever reason the VSC decided they needed an administration big enough to run SUNY instead of small enough to run VSC.

From what I understand, nothing was going bad until the last 10 years. I remember them panicking about dropping enrollment during my last couple years. It just sucks...on top of having one of the best meteorology programs in the world, they also have a top notch TV program as well as pretty good music and mountain recreation departments. Not to mention how important it was for the whole northeastern part of VT and northwestern part of NH as the only commutable 4 year college. The fact that UVM is trying to get the state to fund them for more than the VSC needs to survive is the biggest salt in the wounds.

At this rate everything east of rt 100 and north of rt 4 should secede for NH and everything else can be part of a new Vermont complete with a new capital in Red Square in Burlington. It's what they want anyway. Its funny that a state that prides itself on being rural just laughs in the face of the people in the actual rural parts while they consolidate all the wealth, education, and jobs in one county.

The state is so corrupt that they don't even try to hide it anymore.

Oh BTW let's not forget the state also just decided to take 20+ prisoners infected with Covid from a prison in St. Albans and dumped them in St J.

Agreed


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VTKilarney

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yes, I do not have a problem with an annual 1% raise above inflation for the teachers in my town. I think there is value in offering an incentive to hold onto our teachers as they become more experienced.

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You don’t seem to understand the difference between step increases and independent raises that are above the rate of inflation.

My issue is with raises that increase the pay at each step at a rate that is above inflation for a year after year after year. That is simply not a sustainable model.
 

deadheadskier

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No, I'm perfectly aware of what step increases are. Those flatten out over time as teachers age out of the system and are typically replaced with less experienced and younger teachers at lower salaries.

A recent three contract in my town had a year 1 increase if 3.7% across the board and then 1.6% in years 2/3. Seems reasonable to me.

I would add the 1% as part of the step program. Maybe tie .5% to tenure with a 4 year degree and the full 1% to those with a Master's.

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uphillklimber

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I agree, A raise to keep pace with inflation, regardless of merit or improvement, is all I would see as anywhere near sustainable. Getting a raise beyond inflation is unsustainable. Merit raises are a separate issue. Step increases come with years of service beyond that.
 

VTKilarney

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I agree, A raise to keep pace with inflation, regardless of merit or improvement, is all I would see as anywhere near sustainable. Getting a raise beyond inflation is unsustainable. Merit raises are a separate issue. Step increases come with years of service beyond that.

Exactly. It’s basic mathematics.
 
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