• Welcome to AlpineZone, the largest online community of skiers and snowboarders in the Northeast!

    You may have to REGISTER before you can post. Registering is FREE, gets rid of the majority of advertisements, and lets you participate in giveaways and other AlpineZone events!

Vermont Likely to Close 3 State Colleges

mbedle

Active member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
1,564
Points
38
Location
Barto, Pennsylvania
I have a theory that something else is going on with Shake Shack. There is a provision that was slipped into the Paycheck Protection Act that requires businesses that take funds to remain neutral in any union organizing effort. My bet is that Shake Shack learned about this provision and returned the money in a nanosecond.

Actually, that only applies to mid-size business loans, which is different than the the PPP loans. The mid-size business loan program is not forgivable (like the PPP loan) and the stay neutral only applies during the terms of the loan.
 

mbedle

Active member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
1,564
Points
38
Location
Barto, Pennsylvania
There were strings attached. But yet, the Kennedy center for the arts was allowed to lay off their staff after getting their money. It's always about the money.

If any small or non-profit business obtains a PPP loan and uses less than 75% of the loan to pay employee salaries, health insurance, employee costs, the loan will not be forgivable. As such, the business would have to pay back the loan with interest. I am not sure if the payback amount is prorated based on the percentage that was used to maintain employees on the books.
 

VTKilarney

Active member
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
5,385
Points
38
Location
VT NEK
Actually, that only applies to mid-size business loans, which is different than the the PPP loans. The mid-size business loan program is not forgivable (like the PPP loan) and the stay neutral only applies during the terms of the loan.

What makes you think that their loan was for a small business? I don’t see franchisees giving the money back. It’s corporate that is.
 

VTKilarney

Active member
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
5,385
Points
38
Location
VT NEK
If any small or non-profit business obtains a PPP loan and uses less than 75% of the loan to pay employee salaries, health insurance, employee costs, the loan will not be forgivable. As such, the business would have to pay back the loan with interest. I am not sure if the payback amount is prorated based on the percentage that was used to maintain employees on the books.

Close, but not quite true. The amount of the loan that is forgiven is reduced depending on how close to the 75% you get. There is also a FTE requirement.
 

uphillklimber

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2003
Messages
2,594
Points
38
Location
Bryant Pond, Maine
Why not have a politician submit a bill to erase mortgages???? Someone, somewhere has footed the bill for all these loans, and people signed their name to them agreeing to pay them back according to the terms. I've always had to pay back loans, even if they were predatory. Legally required. Keep it that way.
 

BenedictGomez

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,763
Points
48
Location
PRNJ
RE: the Harvard money; Trump just said in today's briefing he's going to make Harvard give the COVID19 relief cash back.
 

JoeB-Z

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
207
Points
18
Why not have a politician submit a bill to erase mortgages???? Someone, somewhere has footed the bill for all these loans, and people signed their name to them agreeing to pay them back according to the terms. I've always had to pay back loans, even if they were predatory. Legally required. Keep it that way.

Agree. After all, they are claiming to be college material (a bygone term) and SMART. Please- I understood the implications of every loan. Then again, I was an engineering student and studied 35 hours a week plus classes to make sure it worked out. And I graduated in a recession.

By the way, my old engineering professor, a now 92 year ex-Iraqi Jew who clawed himself up from nothing, said today's students couldn't begin to hack what we did in the 1980s. His name is Dr. Latif Jiji. The whiners should look him up. And I knew another guy who slept in an unheated warehouse and walked the 5 miles to City College from the Bronx because he couldn't afford the subway. He studied in the library and showered in the gym. He got that engineering degree and on from there. No complaints from Daniel Plaza.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
938
Points
18
Please- I understood the implications of every loan. Then again, I was an engineering student and studied 35 hours a week plus classes to make sure it worked out. And I graduated in a recession.

As a millennial, I will say that the sell job that academia was doing in the 2000's on America's youth was wildly unethical. If anything, I fear the BS level has only been elevated as more economically useless degrees/fields of study have permeated academia in the years since I was an undergraduate. The smoke I got blown up my rear end about how priceless my degree was going to be, regardless of what I studied, was palpable at each university to which I applied.

At best these administrators/professors naively appealed to their position of authority when pitching to prospective students the value of the degrees they hoped to earn. More likely, they knew that ~half the degrees offered were totally worthless and these university representatives continued with the sell job anyway. The irony is not lost on me that these very people claim to be the arbiters of morality - or that these are the same people who preach from their soapboxes how evil businesses are.

This is coming from someone whose parents could afford the price tag and earned a valuable degree. That said, I feel terribly for those whose parents couldn't afford the sky high tuition and didn't have the financial acumen to convincingly explain to their children why borrowing money to study [XYZ obvious joke field of study] is a one way trip to financial ruin.
 

drjeff

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
17,250
Points
48
Location
Brooklyn, CT
Purely 100% my own views here... For perspective, my in-laws (both of whom I like and enjoy talking to after knowing them for over a quarter century now) were college profs in the Boston area... My FIL was head of the College of General Studies at Boston University when he retired, and my MIL was an Associate Prof in the Biology Department at UMASS Boston.

They both now admit, that short of a minority number of academic fields (such as engineering, mathematics, applied sciences, etc) that so much of what is offered and taught these days, just isn't cost worthy or relevant today (and for added perspective, my sister in-law, their younger daughter, is an Ph.D, tenured professor at Princeton as a social anthropologist specializing in the study of Turkish genocide of the Muslim Cyprian citizens from the late 1800's through mid 1900's ... (I wish I was making that up, but I'm not, and apparently it's culturally relevant enough in the academic world that Columbia University has entered into a bit of a bidding war with Princeton now over having my sister in-law on staff.... [emoji849][emoji849]

If one wants me to elaborate more upon my views of modern academics after reading this, just say the word!! Lol!!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app
 

uphillklimber

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2003
Messages
2,594
Points
38
Location
Bryant Pond, Maine
I can remember looking to go to SMVTI (South Portland, Maine)when I graduated high school. The cost was far less than a college would have been, just over half, IIRC. I couldn't see a way to repay that load on a carpenter's salary at the time. I did not want to be in debt forever to a loan I could not afford to pay back. I was given a hard sell that I could get any education I wanted, but I also felt the responsibility of the weight of paying back a loan. I simply do not understand how anyone could willingly saddle themselves with a loan and not consider the ramifications of actually paying it back.

But.... I can share with you what I do see an awful lot of. Kids ask their parents for a loan to buy a bike or x-box or whatever. Instead of the parents telling their kids to save up their allowance or babysitting money, they just give them a loan. They often never expect it paid back, or forgive the loan on their birthday or for Christmas. I know I am painting with a broad brush but many parents today are not teaching fiscal responsibility to their children and not nearly enough of them know how to save up or to actually repay a loan. Just listen to them complaining about their college loans, they are expecting them to be forgiven. They have never learned how to pay someone back.

But still, I have no sympathy for them. They signed their name, promising to pay back the loan. These are the brightest of the generation, smart, qualified for college. Taking money from the government, which, of course, means taking money from people who worked for it and earned it. Pay back what you promised to pay back, as an adult, making your own financial decisions, and signing your name to it. Welcome to adulthood.
 

BenedictGomez

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,763
Points
48
Location
PRNJ
my sister in-law, their younger daughter, is an Ph.D, tenured professor at Princeton as a social anthropologist specializing in the study of Turkish genocide of the Muslim Cyprian citizens from the late 1800's through mid 1900's ... (I wish I was making that up, but I'm not, and apparently it's culturally relevant enough in the academic world that Columbia University has entered into a bit of a bidding war with Princeton now over having my sister in-law on staff.... [emoji849][emoji849]

Of course they are. Kind of shocked Harvard didnt beat them too it, they must already have one.
 

trackbiker

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
281
Points
16
Location
Eastern PA
my sister in-law, their younger daughter, is an Ph.D, tenured professor at Princeton as a social anthropologist specializing in the study of Turkish genocide of the Muslim Cyprian citizens from the late 1800's through mid 1900's ...
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app

Is that really what she is teaching??? It sounds more like that's what her subject was for her thesis for her Phd.
 

BenedictGomez

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,763
Points
48
Location
PRNJ
As a millennial, I will say that the sell job that academia was doing in the 2000's on America's youth was wildly unethical. If anything, I fear the BS level has only been elevated as more economically useless degrees/fields of study have permeated academia in the years since I was an undergraduate. The smoke I got blown up my rear end about how priceless my degree was going to be, regardless of what I studied, was palpable at each university to which I applied.

It's a scam that's skyrocketed the last 20 years. The "value" of college education has plummeted in roughly that timeframe. It used to be humorous hearing about all these ridiculously funny & esoteric subjects & degrees, but it's not so amusing anymore.

Ever watch old movies? It's funny how you'll watch a movie from the 50s or 60s and people would be "impressed" by the college graduate, nowadays all you have to have is a pulse & the ability to fill out the Federal loan paperwork & VOILA!!!!!! You're a college graduate. A serious devaluation in being a college graduate, has of course, come with that.
 

Smellytele

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
7,700
Points
48
Location
Right where I want to be
I remember I was in a stats class and there was the dumbest person I have ever met in the class. I said to myself and to many others “if she gets a degree mine is fucking useless.” It basically is now anyway. Don’t think it really ever helped me get a job. It was more who I knew that got me most jobs. At least interviews.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
 

thetrailboss

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
28,424
Points
48
Location
NEK by Birth; Alta/Snowbird by Choice
Okay, let me explain it to you.

For your argument to make fiscal sense, after the upcoming academic year the colleges must not lose any money ever again. Since not a single person has come remotely close to cracking that code, it's not at all probable. And the demographics are forecasted to get much worse, especially in New England.

If the goal is to stem the bleeding, it makes a LOT of sense to close the colleges now even if it would cost the same amount of money to keep the colleges open for just one more year.

Think of it this way: I steal $100 from your checking account every month. I offer you a deal. You can pay a $100 ransom and I will never take another nickel from your checking account. If you don't pay me the ransom, I will keep taking the $100 every month. According to you, you shouldn't pay the ransom because next month you would have lost $100 anyway.

As I have said earlier, I am all for finding a way to keep these colleges open. But you need a better argument than the one you just made.

Third time: THAT IS NOT MY ARGUMENT. I summarized what JEB SAID. The question raised was why not get the bridge funding and take a year to restructure? That was from the Public Hearing.

And you are one of two NEK residents who think that closing the college is a good idea. That's just outrageous and I imagine meant to get people angry. Stop trolling.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
938
Points
18
It's a scam that's skyrocketed the last 20 years. The "value" of college education has plummeted in roughly that timeframe. It used to be humorous hearing about all these ridiculously funny & esoteric subjects & degrees, but it's not so amusing anymore.

Ever watch old movies? It's funny how you'll watch a movie from the 50s or 60s and people would be "impressed" by the college graduate, nowadays all you have to have is a pulse & the ability to fill out the Federal loan paperwork & VOILA!!!!!! You're a college graduate. A serious devaluation in being a college graduate, has of course, come with that.
This is the scary part to me. The cost has gone up while the preparation for the workforce/adulthood has likely gone down, on average. This is what throwing money at problems buys us, I suppose - the housing crisis all over again in a different segment of the economy...

I went to a well regarded private university for my undergraduate. All-in cost was ~$50k a year at the time. Now it's ~$72k. At this rate, it will cost $100k/year in today's dollars by the time I'll look to send my kids to college. If that does happen, admission will be more about whose can afford tuition than who's most qualified. There was certainly an element of that when I was there, but it will have a material adverse effect on the quality of the students, if unmitigated.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app
 
Top