WCAX: 45 Lost Skiers and Riders in the Last Two Weeks Concern Vermont Officials

[MadMadWorld]

FYI...Found a SAR app on my Android phone and it seems to plot your GPS really really well and will even send it to Emergency/SAR (although I was too afraid to test that feature out). It might be worth a download. Not sure if it's available or iOS

 

[fbrissette]

So are you saying they should be just left to die, or charged more just because it was more annoying. A rescue situation is a rescue situation regardless of the time of day.

Look Im all for personal responsibility, but the overal vibe of those for charging for rescue seems to be that you think they should have known it was coming. If that was the case, noone would ever get lost ever, and we all know thats not the case.

Noone ever plans to get lost or in an accident. All this talk of you should know better sounds good at face value, but really has no value.

I certainly don't think they should be left to die. Good arguments have been made for either end of the spectrum. Between systematically charging the full cost of rescue and getting a free ride even in cases of uttermost stupidity, I think there are a lot of middle-ground options.

I like the New-Hampshire approach or I would be in favor of a systematic 250-500$ fine that could be waived by authorities if need be.

A first step would be to better educate resort skiers (they are the main problem, not the guys that earn their turns). If all the resorts that provide backcountry access could pitch in for 1000$, you could get a nice educational website up where there should be a wall of shame detailing all cases and mistakes made by skiers as well as rescue costs. Provide a link on all ski-resorts web pages, plaster a few posters everywhere. That would be a first start, and a nice way for resorts to show that they are good corporate citizens. Ski Vermont could coordinate that effort.

 

[RootDKJ]

What happens when someone is unwilling or unable to pay? It matters not if the fine (tax) is $25 or $2500.

Off to the rape cage?

 

[AdironRider]

I was thinking about this last night, and I think a consideration to be taken into account is each person fitness level or physical capabilities.

A few years back a dad and some kids got lost at Gore. While they were never to got to far away, a mile through a couple feet of snow is a very different experience for someone whos 4 feet tall (like a kid), opposed to a guy like me at 6'3" who is active every day. I know those kids at Gore were exhausted, and it wasnt exactly a lack of awareness or poor planning per se.

While open to debate, I think everyone agrees that no matter the amount of training, certain people are more capable than others. Its easy to think that it wouldnt be a problem because we could all handle the situation, but others might be in a different set of circumstances.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I certainly don't think they should be left to die. Good arguments have been made for either end of the spectrum. Between systematically charging the full cost of rescue and getting a free ride even in cases of uttermost stupidity, I think there are a lot of middle-ground options.

I like the New-Hampshire approach or I would be in favor of a systematic 250-500$ fine that could be waived by authorities if need be.

A first step would be to better educate resort skiers (they are the main problem, not the guys that earn their turns). If all the resorts that provide backcountry access could pitch in for 1000$, you could get a nice educational website up where there should be a wall of shame detailing all cases and mistakes made by skiers as well as rescue costs. Provide a link on all ski-resorts web pages, plaster a few posters everywhere. That would be a first start, and a nice way for resorts to show that they are good corporate citizens. Ski Vermont could coordinate that effort.

Good ideas here.

 

[Scruffy]

What happens when someone is unwilling or unable to pay? It matters not if the fine (tax) is $25 or $2500.

Off to the rape cage?

That's the 2nd time you mentioned "rape cage"; you got something you wanna confess? :lol:


Since most SAR groups in the NE are against charging Europe style; how about a bill is presented to the victim(s) for the actual cost of rescue with a explanation of the costs the risks the SAR personnel took, whether they were volunteer SAR or paid, the budget constraints of running such an operation, etc.. etc.. Along with the bill is a suggested donation amount. If the victim(s) are feeling that their lives where truly saved, and they are feeling generous they pay what the can. The donations help defray the cost, and keep paid SAR on the job, or help keep volunteer SAR in new equipment and training. If the the vics don't feel they should pay, it's business as usual anyway.

 

[AdironRider]

You seem to be stuck on the notion that this is in someway a big deal for the state budget. That has yet to be proven in the least outside of your mind.

Again, 1300-1500 per rescue is nothing. Thats paper waste on a state level. Thats putting water fountains in instead of water coolers. Thats one police chief salary per year with benefits (actually, probably less depending on how many years in the force).

Frankly, this is one of the best ways and one of the cheapest risk/reward options out there for the public good. Anything else is just posturing to make yourself seem elitist.

SAR arent doctors, the training is cheap and they most likely need it anyways for their other jobs. So all these costs you seem to think are a big deal would be paid for anyways.

 

[BenedictGomez]

If all the resorts that provide backcountry access could pitch in for 1000$, you could get a nice educational website up where there should be a wall of shame detailing all cases and mistakes made by skiers as well as rescue costs. Provide a link on all ski-resorts web pages, plaster a few posters everywhere.

I fail to see how that would accomplish much of anything or deter anyone. Who would realistically be perusing that website? Probably not the lower level nouveau glades skiers that tend to be the ones who get in trouble.

If the victim(s) are feeling that their lives where truly saved, and they are feeling generous they pay what the can. The donations help defray the cost, and keep paid SAR on the job, or help keep volunteer SAR in new equipment and training. If the the vics don't feel they should pay, it's business as usual anyway.

This is commonly done, so there's no reason they couldnt do that. My brother's water-rescue team is volunteer and works entirely on donations (rescues, drowning recoveries, item recoveries). They've received some pretty decent donations from appreciative wealthy folks.

Typically what I have found is when I see these boundaries, orange fences, signs etc I see them more as a warning rather than a "you go in there and your in big trouble with the resort" type thing.

I think this is a good example...Basically this is a glade at a popular resort. Its actually not too far off a groomer

That one I could see being a real "SAR magnet", because not only is it an area boundary and a place where you're saying if you go much farther you wont have a return point, but it looks to be about as easy of a glade as possible, so lower-level people would be drawn to it.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Sorry you have to endure another Rutland Regional Medical Center ad when you watch the vid. Folks wonder why it is so expensive there...because they spend way too much on advertising.

I'm so sick of those commercials You would think the people would at least appear to be happy that they beat cancer. Instead they are super serious and almost look depressed. Weird.

 

[Scruffy]

You seem to be stuck on the notion that this is in someway a big deal for the state budget. That has yet to be proven in the least outside of your mind.

Again, 1300-1500 per rescue is nothing. Thats paper waste on a state level. Thats putting water fountains in instead of water coolers. Thats one police chief salary per year with benefits (actually, probably less depending on how many years in the force).

Frankly, this is one of the best ways and one of the cheapest risk/reward options out there for the public good. Anything else is just posturing to make yourself seem elitist.

SAR arent doctors, the training is cheap and they most likely need it anyways for their other jobs. So all these costs you seem to think are a big deal would be paid for anyways.

Whatever dude, do me a favor, don't respond to my posts and I won't respond to yours. You can't refrain from getting in some insult.
I'm not trying to be "elitist"; I'm having a discussion of ideas; you don't want to partake as an adult.

You want some Vermont farmer just scraping by to pay to save your ass when you visit Killington and act like an ass by getting lost out back, good on ya bro. And stop bring up all the other government waste, it's irrelevant to the conversation.

Vermont used State Police, and they rely on volunteers, here read this:
http://addisonindependent.com/201209who-should-lead-vermonts-search-and-rescue-operations

Wouldn't it be nice if the volunteers were well equipped from donations.

You don't want to donate, fine, just keep sucking off the tit.

 

[AdironRider]

So now saving lives is sucking off the govt tit. You are delusional. If this is relegated to abusing govt, what actual service do they provide in your opinion that isnt abused. Show me programs, not just posturing.

Again, our tax dollars already pay for SAR to begin with. So am I sucking my own tit? Sounds pleasurable.

Nevermind if a volunteer buys equipment he can write that off on his taxes, gets pro deals, and donations already. This is not the horrible financial situation you are pasting it to be.

And how is govt waste not part of the conversation. Oh right, it proves you completly wrong. THat article states the program costs 145k. The horror! Again, how many govt programs blow that in a week, not saving lives mind you, but processing bs. You cant argue that this govt program is costing to much but completely ignore all the others. BRO.

 

[RootDKJ]

That's the 2nd time you mentioned "rape cage"; you got something you wanna confess? :lol:

No, I just haven't read a good answer to this yet.

 

[Scruffy]

So now saving lives is sucking off the govt tit. You are delusional. If this is relegated to abusing govt, what actual service do they provide in your opinion that isnt abused. Show me programs, not just posturing.

Again, our tax dollars already pay for SAR to begin with. So am I sucking my own tit? Sounds pleasurable.

Nevermind if a volunteer buys equipment he can write that off on his taxes, gets pro deals, and donations already. This is not the horrible financial situation you are pasting it to be.

And how is govt waste not part of the conversation. Oh right, it proves you completly wrong. THat article states the program costs 145k. The horror! Again, how many govt programs blow that in a week, not saving lives mind you, but processing bs. You cant argue that this govt program is costing to much but completely ignore all the others. BRO.

I never said 145K is a lot for SAR, it isn't much, but it's at least 1-2 state workers salaries. You ok with laying off a couple folks?

" And how is govt waste not part of the conversation. Oh right, it proves you completly wrong." No, it proves you cannot stay on point, that's all. There is a lot of gov waste, we are not boiling the ocean with this thread, it's irrelevant to the conversation.

"Nevermind if a volunteer buys equipment he can write that off on his taxes, gets pro deals, and donations already. This is not the horrible financial situation you are pasting it to be."

Again, I never said it's a "horrible financial situation". The question arose whether people knowingly ducted ropes and passed waring signs and got lost off the back of a resort should be fined.

You don't want to pay, WE GET THAT ALREADY.

Today we are talking about donations, and you still have to obviscate the conversation with your tired drivel .
Look we get it YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY, unless you have some other point to make, could you refrain from just attacking others?

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm so sick of those commercials You would think the people would at least appear to be happy that they beat cancer. Instead they are super serious and almost look depressed. Weird.

They probably owe RRMC money and had to do the ad as payback....

:lol:

 

[fbrissette]

I fail to see how that would accomplish much of anything or deter anyone. Who would realistically be perusing that website? Probably not the lower level nouveau glades skiers that tend to be the ones who get in trouble.

Education can only help. It might not help that much, but don't you think it would at least be worth a try ? You are against fines and and you are against trying to educate the potential culprits. Obviously you don't seem to think there is a problem out there.

 

[AdironRider]

I never said 145K is a lot for SAR, it isn't much, but it's at least 1-2 state workers salaries. You ok with laying off a couple folks?

" And how is govt waste not part of the conversation. Oh right, it proves you completly wrong." No, it proves you cannot stay on point, that's all. There is a lot of gov waste, we are not boiling the ocean with this thread, it's irrelevant to the conversation.

"Nevermind if a volunteer buys equipment he can write that off on his taxes, gets pro deals, and donations already. This is not the horrible financial situation you are pasting it to be."

Again, I never said it's a "horrible financial situation". The question arose whether people knowingly ducted ropes and passed waring signs and got lost off the back of a resort should be fined.

You don't want to pay, WE GET THAT ALREADY.

Today we are talking about donations, and you still have to obviscate the conversation with your tired drivel .
Look we get it YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY, unless you have some other point to make, could you refrain from just attacking others?

Proving you wrong does not neccessitate an attack. Now youre saying people are going to be laid off? Seriously?

We also get that you want to charge them thousands because you think so. WE GET THAT BRO.

 

[Scruffy]

Proving you wrong does not neccessitate an attack. Now youre saying people are going to be laid off? Seriously?

We also get that you want to charge them thousands because you think so. WE GET THAT BRO.

You don't stop do ya :lol::lol: Quick, post something stupid like: "Now you think skiers should just stop skiing."
Any other words you want to twist around today?

 

[AdironRider]

You don't stop do ya :lol::lol: Quick, post something stupid like: "Now you think skiers should just stop skiing."
Any other words you want to twist around today?

I was a collegiate swimmer. Endurance training paying dividends.

 

[thetrailboss]

So with all the signs and ropes at Killington, and I have personally seen them--they are VERY clear, it would seem to me that folks have PLENTY of notice as to what they are CHOOSING to do and that would justify either a fee for rescue or a fine.

 

[noreasterbackcountry]

Anyway, here is an interesting quote from the story that fits in with our conversation:

I thought the more interesting and more relevant quote for this discussion also came directly from the State Police Captain who stated he is against charging a fee for rescues because he would "much rather" people call as soon as they get into trouble and a fine acts as a deterrent.

This is pretty telling from someone who has to weigh allocation of resources versus public safety on a daily basis.

That said, I think the arguments on both sides (charge/not charge) are perfectly reasonable and nobody has a monopoly on common sense... Not even Mr. Trooper. However, I would tend to defer to him, given he probably as the best handle on the resource vs. safety calculus involved.

btw.. the "should we charge for rescues" virus has spread to Telemark Tips. Name calling, side taking and wharblgrbl to ensue in 3...2....1...

God help us if it reaches the TGR forums.