WCAX: 45 Lost Skiers and Riders in the Last Two Weeks Concern Vermont Officials

[Mpdsnowman]

I dont mean to be rude but it is lol...And I am not picking on people from that area as much as I am honest about what ive seen over the years. It all starts at Mountain creek or Hunter lol...And then they say "hey lets go to vermont!" and they do...and then they get lost....

When people come with us to Jay Peak and other resorts out west typically they have less than two years under their belts. And if you broke down those two years it generally equates to six or eight total times at most. The nice thing is we take them cautiously thru these places and when we do go off base we go in groups and only go so far...We try and take their excitement and keep it in perspective....We can put checks and balances along the way however when small groups go independently and again their excitement levels are so high coupled with what they are reading online the chances for this to happen are going to be high...

 

[Scruffy]

And you know whats sad...those two jersey cowboys are going to go home and tell everyone what a time it was and next year they will probably do it again....because they got out.....and unfortunately bring more cowboys with them because they think they know the area...

Something tells me Kill is going to have their own police force of some sort...

Exactly!! That's why you need to charge them with a fine that will bring on some hurt for them.

It's very easy for anyone of us "self responsibility" types, and some of us back country/side country ski also, to say I don't want fines because < plug in your argument here >. But, I'll bet, if you are in a dangerous position and actually feel your life is in danger, you or your parents will gladly pay a few thousand bucks to have your ass saved. And you will learn from that. Getting saved for free enables you to do it again.

Education can go a long way here, think Hunter Safety Course, but how do you implement it? There is no license requirement to ski or ride.

SKI mag just ran an article that states AT sales up 70%, so the trend is growing. Hopefully those buying in will also have skins, and obtain the knowledge needed to successfully go BC. It won't stop the "Yo Vinny Gaper" types with rental eqip.

 

[drjeff]

another two lost on tuesday:

KILLINGTON, Vt. -

More lost skiers at Killington Mountain are leaving state police frustrated and draining resources.

State police got a 911 call at about 4:30 p.m. Tuesday from two skiers who had intentionally skied off the main trails and were now lost.

Trevor Smith and Christopher Feehan, both 21, of New Jersey, had become separated from each other, and Smith said he was not doing well. State police tracked them down with GPS, but during the process Smith began experiencing serious fatigue, became incoherent and passed out.

Killington ski patrol sent four people out and brought the two skiers out at around 10 p.m. Both were checked out medically and released.

State police said in a statement:

"This year has seen an unacceptable amount of skiers, primarily at Killington Mountain, intentionally leaving the marked trails and eventually having to call for assistance to get out of the woods. This places a large drain on State Police uniform and dispatch resources and the State Police will be looking to work with Killington Mountain in an effort to curtail these reckless and poorly thought out acts by skiers who are not physically/mentally prepared to deal with the harsh Vermont winter conditions they face upon getting lost."

K specific - it seems that most of the lost skiers have left the maintained trails in the same basic area (as has happened for YEARS in the same basic area of the mountain).

Some BLATANT signage in the area, such as many ski areas out West have at Avalanche Control gates for back country acccess, letting folks know that they BETTER be equipped, and even in this case that rescue costs will (or atleast should IMHO) be passed onto them, with a typical rescue costing $X, will likely get at least a few folks who shouldn't be straying off a maintained area in the first place from doing so.

Well not pertaining to back country rescue, an example of where some blatant signage with notification of a fee that worked well was at Mount Snow with their bubble chair. There were plenty of folks who thought that the bubbles would be stickered up and carved up with folks initials/etc very quickly. Mount Snow put some PROMINENT signage all over the base area and lift queue area and in the bubbles letting folks know that there's video of them getting off the bubble and if they get caught vandalizing the bubble that they'll be charged a $3000 replacement fee - the bubbles have been essentially vandalism free :idea:

 

[ScottySkis]

It isn't acceptable to me and according to the latest story on WCAX, the recent spike in lost skiers isn't acceptable to the rescuers either. http://www.wcax.com/story/20549092/police-concerned
Additionally, to me this just isn't about the cost of the rescue but rather the perception that skiing out of bounds and getting lost carries no consequences. Under the current system, the irresponsible skiers/riders ski out, get lost make a phone call, and are often back in the condo by evening sipping hot chocolates over tales of their extra gnarly day. No skin off thier teeth.

Would it be acceptable if 1 out of every 1000 Vermont tourists that came to Boston, took a Duck boat cruise and jumped out because they thought it would be fun to try to swim to shore?



On the flip side, maybe that same pressure about knowing they will get charged for their rescue will keep them from going out of bounds in the first place.
Maybe my $1000 and $500 fines are too high. Let's lower the amount to $500 and $200. Still a good chunk of change but I feel it would still be a deterrent to irresponsible out of bounds skiing.
Scotty, you said the dispatcher told you you would have to pay (an unspecified amount) for your rescue if you couldn't get yourself out. Would you have paid a flat $500 fine to be rescued?

Public shaming is definitely viable in my book. Unfortunately, I could see some of these idiots being proud to have their names and pictures on the wall. "Dude, that day was epic. Dropping that (5 foot) cliff band off the backside was totally worth getting lost and having to be rescued!" Gotta hit these guys in the pocket.

Yes at that time I wanted to be rescued, but my friend was happy with the walk, If I was by myself I would have borrowed the money if I had to.

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

[BenedictGomez]

Especially in cases where folks intentionally took the risk with little or no expertise? And again, being irresponsible is not an "honest mistake."

My brother is a water safety and rescue expert and teaches ice rescue classes throughout New England each winter. He is hardly a bleeding-heart and I yet know he is generally against charging the "victims" (however dumb and irresponsible they may be) large sums in rescue cases due to the fact that any time lost can seriously jeopardize the odds of the victims survival, the fact that it can lead to longer and more costlier rescues, and the fact that in a worst-case scenario can increase the risk of danger to the rescuers themselves. Now granted, ice water rescue is more dangerous than on-mountain rescue, but I think the parallels are there.

To say media has no influence is being a bit blind. The very perception you mention about skiing the trees being "cool" comes from somewhere.

Skiing fresh powder through the trees is a pretty common theme in ski films. As is hitting huge park features. 20 years ago parks weren't even on the radar of most resorts. Deemed dangerous. Now parks are giant and every kid wants in. Do you think this isn't a result of the media?

You're acting as if ski porn is new. It's not. Ski movies depicting skiing the trees have been around forever (literally DECADES). So what is new? The LEGAL pursuit of this form of skiing.

As others in this thread and other threads have noted, if you're a certain age you remember that you could/would get your lift ticket pulled for skiing in the woods. Now? Not only is skiing in the woods allowed, it's highly encouraged and marketed by the mountains!

Same thing with tricks. Pulling helicopters was cool when I was a kid. But you better not have done it in sight of a ski patroller or you could get your lift ticket pulled for that "dangerous stunt" as well. Now? We have super-extreme-killer-hits in the parks where you can fly off 10 foot features at high-speed if you so choose, or go flying ridiculously high in a pipe, and again, not only is it completely LEGAL, but it's culturally viewed as the "cool" thing to do. You can say that ski movies helped create a perception that this is "cool" skiing, but this stuff was ALWAYS in ski movies. The only difference is that people have an outlet to: A) actually do it now B) it's venue endorsed.

On a side note, these skiing apps that mark track your runs could really save a lot of lives. I highly recommend anyone going into the side country or backcountry to download one of the apps out there.

Good point, but I think familiarizing yourself with GPS on your phone and simply having the know-how to read out your exact GPS coordinates would be even better from a rescue/location standpoint.

K specific - it seems that most of the lost skiers have left the maintained trails in the same basic area (as has happened for YEARS in the same basic area of the mountain).

I was about to note this as well. For whatever reason, a large number of these incidents seem to take place there. Perhaps that's not the case, and Killington simply has better reporting measures, or perhaps it's just a logical function of scale in that since Killington has the most skier days, it's logical they'd also have the most skeirs lost.

But again, perspective is needed in terms of the true size of the problem. With greater than 4,250,000 Vermont skier days, even if 80 skiers need rescuing per season, you're talking about something that happens to 1 in 53,000 people.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Good article in the Rutland Herald:

http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20130110/NEWS01/701109959/1002


The State Police guy seems to think a $250 to $500 fine is a good idea ;-)

 

[BenedictGomez]

The State Police guy seems to think a $250 to $500 fine is a good idea ;-)

I dont think a smallish $250 fine would be unreasonable, but the value isnt the money, it's the threat. Post the $250 "WARNING" signs at the top of the lift and at the top of the trails marking ski area boundary. Will it help? I'm not convinced, but maybe it's worth a try.

 

[skiur]

K specific - it seems that most of the lost skiers have left the maintained trails in the same basic area (as has happened for YEARS in the same basic area of the mountain).

Some BLATANT signage in the area, such as many ski areas out West have at Avalanche Control gates for back country acccess, letting folks know that they BETTER be equipped, and even in this case that rescue costs will (or atleast should IMHO) be passed onto them, with a typical rescue costing $X, will likely get at least a few folks who shouldn't be straying off a maintained area in the first place from doing so.

Well not pertaining to back country rescue, an example of where some blatant signage with notification of a fee that worked well was at Mount Snow with their bubble chair. There were plenty of folks who thought that the bubbles would be stickered up and carved up with folks initials/etc very quickly. Mount Snow put some PROMINENT signage all over the base area and lift queue area and in the bubbles letting folks know that there's video of them getting off the bubble and if they get caught vandalizing the bubble that they'll be charged a $3000 replacement fee - the bubbles have been essentially vandalism free :idea:

Killington has signage in that area, then more as you get towards coops telling you to stick to the blazed trail and it takes you back out onto west glade. They cant really stop people from going out of bounds there, its state forest land and open to anyone. Not sure what they could really do to stop people, they tell you on the sign you could be lost and have to pay for your rescue but it if somebody has there mind set on it you cant stop them. Anyone wanting to do it should atleast hike it in the summer, titally different world but atleast they would know there way to wheelerville rd. Not that thats doing much for them without a car there to pick them up.

 

[fbrissette]

I was about to note this as well. For whatever reason, a large number of these incidents seem to take place there. Perhaps that's not the case, and Killington simply has better reporting measures, or perhaps it's just a logical function of scale in that since Killington has the most skier days, it's logical they'd also have the most skeirs lost.

The problem with Killington is that a lot of backcountry leads to nowhere. Add this to the high number of skiers and it likely explains the high occurence of lost people. You will get stuck if you have no way to backtrack. In deep snow, it's already hard enough to climb steep slopes with snowhoes and skins, it is nearly impossible on foot. At Jay, most of the backcountry, including Big Jay naturally leads back to a road or crosses the long trail. Very hard to get lost for long. You can get lost (as it happened before) heading past Beaver Pond's but that's not a problematic area and you really have to be careless to end up on the wrong side of the drainage.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

You're acting as if ski porn is new. It's not. Ski movies depicting skiing the trees have been around forever (literally DECADES). So what is new? The LEGAL pursuit of this form of skiing.

I am? Pretty sure I never eluded that but you are correct Ski films are NOT new and have always been an influence.

Yeah pulling Helicopters was considered a no no when I was a kid too but I did it anyway because it's what I saw in films and mogul comps.

Why are tree runs and giant kickers "legal" now? It's become the norm, why? Ski resorts didn't just allow it over night. they allow it because it's supply and demand. It's what ppl want because it's what ppl SEE.

You talk cool "thing to do" and culture yet ignore the influence of pop culture/media? Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Scruffy]

I dont think a smallish $250 fine would be unreasonable, but the value isnt the money, it's the threat. Post the $250 "WARNING" signs at the top of the lift and at the top of the trails marking ski area boundary. Will it help? I'm not convinced, but maybe it's worth a try.

$250 is not enough of a deterrent. Make it $2500 - $5000.

 

[Mpdsnowman]

I dont know if any amount is enough....Actually I think to post a fine of a high value could be a real issue..

You have to look at the actual "clientele" of the people who are getting lost. Now for some they may think this is stereotyping but its really more of getting to the core and trying to analyze the whole senario of why and how they end up in these situations. I would say the majority of these individuals are from a decent upbringing and certainly have a life and family for backing....IE: there not poor and on the street by any means...

With that, I could see a party getting truly lost, truly at risk and in the need of search and rescue....AND...If the bill was sent to them I could see their Lawyers getting involved, dragging the resort and everyone else into a "who truly is responsible" for years to come. And that cost would outweigh any fine...

With the right set of "mouthpieces" one could really make a rescue fine turn into a lot worse...Regardless of what the other side might think....

The fact that these are tourist destinations leaves a door wide open...

 

[BenedictGomez]

At Jay, most of the backcountry, including Big Jay naturally leads back to a road or crosses the long trail. Very hard to get lost for long. You can get lost (as it happened before) heading past Beaver Pond's but that's not a problematic area and you really have to be careless to end up on the wrong side of the drainage.

I think you mean Andre's Paradise? I'm always excessively careful not to go too far left in there because I've heard from so many people that it's easy to make that mistake (which may or may not be true, but I guess I'm someone that heeds warnings, lol) and that many people have made done that and have to hike back.

$250 is not enough of a deterrent. Make it $2500 - $5000.

If you read my previous post, I'm against large fines due to the deterrent and/or delay to calling rescue, and the added costs/dangers that that could put rescuers in. If there's a study showing that that's not the case, then I'd be all for tagging them with $5000, but my inclination is that it's probably true.

 

[Mpdsnowman]

Lol you guys are talking about the golf course??? Ive ended up there so have others I know. Very tempting to us powder hounds...until you need your 9 iron lol..

It took me a good hour plus to get back lol, others as well..

 

[AdironRider]

$250 is not enough of a deterrent. Make it $2500 - $5000.

So given that the average cost of a rescue is well under those figures based on info provided in this thread, what is the motivation to charge double, to quadruple the amount.

These people are not criminals. I sense mob mentality building.

 

[ScottySkis]

So given that the average cost of a rescue is well under those figures based on info provided in this thread, what is the motivation to charge double, to quadruple the amount.

These people are not criminals. I sense mob mentality building.

Probably more signs and I would take any fine they gave to get out, beings lost changed my whole thinking on skiing and glades.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

These people are not criminals. I sense mob mentality building.

I agree. Some people are taking a very elitist attitude on this. They are skiers not thugs.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Lol you guys are talking about the golf course??? Ive ended up there so have others I know. Very tempting to us powder hounds...until you need your 9 iron lol.. It took me a good hour plus to get back lol, others as well..

Yeah, around where the golf course is is where you'd end up. Trust me, wasting 1 or 2 hours of my ski day pole holing across flat back country followed by a dormant golf course is far more of a deterrent to me than any eleventy-billion dollar fine would be!

So given that the average cost of a rescue is well under those figures based on info provided in this thread, what is the motivation to charge double, to quadruple the amount. These people are not criminals. I sense mob mentality building.

You're preaching to the choir, I'm generally against the fines for the safety reasons I noted, but if something menial like $250 could potentially eliminate 8 or 10 rescues a year, I dont see the big deal. It's these draconian $10000 or $25000 fines that I think are cray-cray. To be honest, I'm even a bit uncomfortable with the $5000 I mentioned, but if it can be proven that it really was a $5000 rescue as opposed to the $500 variety, AND it can be proved with a study that it isnt a deterrent to safety (which I'm not convinced of) than I'd acquiesce to it.

 

[fbrissette]

Lol you guys are talking about the golf course??? Ive ended up there so have others I know. Very tempting to us powder hounds...until you need your 9 iron lol..

It took me a good hour plus to get back lol, others as well..

Nope. Some skiers have ended up on the wrong side of the divide. Basically on the left side of the long trail, whereas anywhere on the right side of the long trail take you on the West Bowl and the golf course as you have found out. Go left and you will have several kilometers before you reach civilization.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

At Jay, most of the backcountry, including Big Jay naturally leads back to a road or crosses the long trail. Very hard to get lost for long. You can get lost (as it happened before) heading past Beaver Pond's but that's not a problematic area and you really have to be careless to end up on the wrong side of the drainage.

It's easy for us on this board to say that. Many of us know the resort terrain very well and often ski out of bounds. For a tourist or someone inexperienced with the terrain they can easily get lost at Jay. They don't necessarily know that if they just keep going they will eventually get back to a road.

I think there was a woman last year who was lost all night long in the Dip/Orchard area where you can even HEAR cars lower down. I never understood why she tried sleeping in the woods but it happened. The valley/bowl coming down from Big Jay is a large swath of woods and some places it flattens out. It's easy for people to get disoriented and no know which way is out.

Tram side can be worse. Out past Beaver pond it is easy to get greedy and ski too far left and miss the groomer back to the lift.