The thing about racers is that they move fast, just because you don't see anyone right away doesn't meant the course is clear. Just never enter the middle of a race course under any circumstances.
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What happened to me at belleayre...unbelievable
- Thread starter rpmk104
- Start date
The thing about racers is that they move fast, just because you don't see anyone right away doesn't meant the course is clear. Just never enter the middle of a race course under any circumstances.
tomski
New member
Clearly, this group were ass holes. The trail should be closed if running gates.
You were pissed. Did you complain to management?
You were pissed. Did you complain to management?
SkiDork
New member
Point taken.
GrilledSteezeSandwich
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During gate training the whole trail doesn't have to be closed. Last week at Killington..the Killington Mountain School had gates set up for training on the skiers left side of Bunny Buster,,and recreational skiers and riders were allowed to ski along the right side..there were no signs but skiers and riders should know to stay away from the course. If I was running gates and some random skier/rider cut in from lower down and was going uber slow..I'd be really pissed off..even if it was just practice..:uzi:
wow, I started quite a good discussion.
I wasn't aware that there was any training that was going on. There weren't any signs up saying that there was racing or training going on. I mean I saw everyone ski all over the slalom course. I did see some belleayre staff use it, but they were going at a much slower pace.
Iroquois is such a flat trail...I just didn't expect anyone to be able to pick up so much speed. We choose to stay on the green trail only for the first day out because we didn't want to be a hazard to other skiers/boarders on the upper mountain. Last thing I want is for my gf or me to be hit from behind.
And this happened at the end of the course near the discovery lodge.
Well, I guess I'll be more careful next time.
I wasn't aware that there was any training that was going on. There weren't any signs up saying that there was racing or training going on. I mean I saw everyone ski all over the slalom course. I did see some belleayre staff use it, but they were going at a much slower pace.
Iroquois is such a flat trail...I just didn't expect anyone to be able to pick up so much speed. We choose to stay on the green trail only for the first day out because we didn't want to be a hazard to other skiers/boarders on the upper mountain. Last thing I want is for my gf or me to be hit from behind.
And this happened at the end of the course near the discovery lodge.
Well, I guess I'll be more careful next time.
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Yes it was not the best idea to cut in, but people will always do this and it is the race team's responsibility to set the course safely for the racers and the general public. Saying the skiers should know not to ever jump into the middle of the course is an excuse to be lazy.
Holding the race school trainers/organizers and random recreational skiers to the same standard is silly. Then why does ski patrol put up lines on trails that are not safe to ski? Why not just hope that they check the trail conditions status in the base lodge and stay off closed trails?
As a safety steward for any sport, you are always told not to assume and hope - take every precaution within reason. Planting 10 additional poles and stringing a line across them "Race in Progress Stay Out" is well within the range of reasonable safety precaution.
Holding the race school trainers/organizers and random recreational skiers to the same standard is silly. Then why does ski patrol put up lines on trails that are not safe to ski? Why not just hope that they check the trail conditions status in the base lodge and stay off closed trails?
As a safety steward for any sport, you are always told not to assume and hope - take every precaution within reason. Planting 10 additional poles and stringing a line across them "Race in Progress Stay Out" is well within the range of reasonable safety precaution.
SIKSKIER
New member
SKIDORK
I didnt see anywhere in the post about looking uphill to see if someone was using it.Even if you do look and don't see someone on course that doent mean they won't be coming from where you can't see them.The gates are for race training only unless they are in a nastar type arena which is always roped off.Expect racers to be,key word here,RACING.Stay out the gates! I do not and never have raced in gates so I am not one of them.Just take this a lesson learned on ski area do's and don'ts that's all.There is no argument here on this one.Only the attitude of the racers.
Lots of mistakes here, could have been a lot worse if there was a collision. He should have looked and the mountain should have at least put up warning signs. It's good common sense to not enter a race course no matter where it is, but the mountain and the course setters are ultimately responsible here. If there had been a collision who's going to get sued? The mountain.
Hmm this was an opened trail. I don't see anything in Article 18 listed on Belleayre's web site about ski racers having the right of way.
http://www.belleayre.com/company/article18.htm
All it says is:
9. Not to overtake another skier in such a manner as to cause contact with the skier being overtaken and to yield the right of way to the skier being overtaken;
You should contact someone in the Belleayre's Administration with your complaint.
http://www.belleayre.com/company/article18.htm
All it says is:
9. Not to overtake another skier in such a manner as to cause contact with the skier being overtaken and to yield the right of way to the skier being overtaken;
You should contact someone in the Belleayre's Administration with your complaint.
Hawkshot99
Active member
I was up at Bellayre on easter last year. There were slalom gate set up on Yahoo under the lift. There was a class or something going on, not sure exactly what. On one of my runs, I came down to the top of the coarse and there was nobody around. There were no signs , ropes, nothing that said to stay off. Since I would be in the way of nobody I started running the gates. Made it to the bottom pretty good.
Later in the day I skied by the start again, but the class/group was there so I didn't even consider going. As I was skiing past the instructor jumped out in my way, nearly getting himself run over. He started screaming at me how he had seen me running HIS gates before, and this was entirely unacceptable. I should never run any gates without permission of the coach. So I asked him if I could go on them and he told me no.
Normally I would have left it at that, but he was a true A-hole, so I ran them anyway. He had nothing on him (jacket) that remotely showed he worked for the mountain, and even had a day ticket on him, no season pass.
I interrupted nobody when I originally ran the gates but he had to go and show how much of a A-hole he was, to me, telling me to stay off of a open trail with no signs saying stay off.
Later in the day I skied by the start again, but the class/group was there so I didn't even consider going. As I was skiing past the instructor jumped out in my way, nearly getting himself run over. He started screaming at me how he had seen me running HIS gates before, and this was entirely unacceptable. I should never run any gates without permission of the coach. So I asked him if I could go on them and he told me no.
Normally I would have left it at that, but he was a true A-hole, so I ran them anyway. He had nothing on him (jacket) that remotely showed he worked for the mountain, and even had a day ticket on him, no season pass.
I interrupted nobody when I originally ran the gates but he had to go and show how much of a A-hole he was, to me, telling me to stay off of a open trail with no signs saying stay off.
And yes, I did look up to see if there is anyone coming. I did so all the time since my gf was always behind me and struggled a bit to link turns. I was facing uphill most of the time so that I can be a spotter for her and guided her down the mountain to avoid getting hit from behind.
kingslug
Well-known member
They had one of these on Dot Nebel. I asked if I could run it, he said no, it would be too difficult for me. Uh....yeah...right. Whenever I find a NASTAR course set up and I can pay to run it, I do, it's pretty fun.
GrilledSteezeSandwich
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Two seasons ago I did Nastar every Thursday night and got really into it and worked my way up to Silver..then last season I had a few bad nights and haven't been into it so much lately..It's funny because the Nastar course at Jackson Hole is easier than the course at Blue mountain...lol..but the pacesetter at Jackson Hole was on twin tips and had a baggy jacket..
riverc0il
New member
FWIW, race courses are almost never "roped off" even when actual races are happening. The resources just aren't there to rope off courses and skiers/racers/coaches/race staff need to be able to move freely through the area of the course. I think the only time I have ever seen a course roped off (six years of race experience in addition to general observation) was one time I saw Wildcat's Nastar course roped.
Now if you want to say "race courses should be roped" or "ski areas need to educate the GP about such issues" then I am in agreement. But to say the it is someone's fault that the course was not roped.... well, it just doesn't happen even for actual races.
As someone else mentioned, GP, nastar, private training, race, or otherwise.... you just don't jump into a set course in the middle. Even if it is a GP course, you start at the race shack. GP courses you usually have to pay to race any ways which requires registration at the shack.
Now if you want to say "race courses should be roped" or "ski areas need to educate the GP about such issues" then I am in agreement. But to say the it is someone's fault that the course was not roped.... well, it just doesn't happen even for actual races.
As someone else mentioned, GP, nastar, private training, race, or otherwise.... you just don't jump into a set course in the middle. Even if it is a GP course, you start at the race shack. GP courses you usually have to pay to race any ways which requires registration at the shack.
ALL of the courses I have seen run on trails that are open to the public have been roped off. Not one exception. I have seen non roped courses on closed trails. That is probably why I would expect an active course to be roped - my expectations based on my experience. Here are a few examples (pic stolen, video I took myself):
http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3001904940062927787RVbXqE
dmc
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Lets see what the rules say...
http://www.nsp.org/1/nsp/Safety_Information/YourResponsibilityCode.asp
-Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
Doesn't say anything about spraying people
-People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
I guess unless your a hotshot ski racer guy
-Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
No sure if he did... But from the timings I assume he didn't
-Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
If there swas no sign he had as much right as anyone to be on the course
http://www.nsp.org/1/nsp/Safety_Information/YourResponsibilityCode.asp
-Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
Doesn't say anything about spraying people
-People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
I guess unless your a hotshot ski racer guy
-Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
No sure if he did... But from the timings I assume he didn't
-Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
If there swas no sign he had as much right as anyone to be on the course
riverc0il
New member
Well, we have different experiences on this. I have raced and practiced at dozens of different mountains in New England and have viewed dozen races and training sessions that I have not participated in and out of all of those races both participant and observer, as I mentioned I only saw a course roped off once. Almost all race courses have a sign at the start of the course and often rope off the starting area. The video you cite is not from New England which is where I have had all my experiences. Pro and National and F.I.S. probably do things differently.ALL of the courses I have seen run on trails that are open to the public have been roped off. Not one exception. I have seen non roped courses on closed trails. That is probably why I would expect an active course to be roped - my expectations based on my experience. Here are a few examples (pic stolen, video I took myself):
http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3001904940062927787RVbXqE
skidbump
Member
I was there,In a hiring clinic. It was not roped off and was not a race, it was a coaches training clinic.It was run by adults for adults and they were pushing the envelope on the only open full length bunny slope.There were instructors in clinics playing in the gates, also some of the people in my hiring clinic group "i would imagine the other group was in it and the snow board hiring groups". Any time they set up gates in past they have closed off the trail or put up a fence to divide in half to keep general public off.
sledhaulingmedic
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"Back in the day", the unwritten rule was you stay out of a course unless you ask. The group training put up the gates, in many cases, they own the equipment, and always had permission to set the course. A school or club team generally only had a short amount of time to set and slip the course, get some runs in and slip and pull the course. If someone or some entity set a course, they as good as owned it. As Riv mentioned, the resources to rope off a section of trail were (still are) tough to come by. Early season, teams practice were they can. Once more terrain is open, they might get permission to close a trail for training.
When I was learning (yes, way back then), such etiquite was part of the ski lessons. You stay out of courses unless you have permission. You don't stop where you can't be seen. You steer clear of lessons, especially with little kids and beginners. You filled in your sitzmark. You don't jump in someone's line. That was then.
I'm not surprised the poster was unaware of this. No, he shouldn't have been in the course. No, the course probably shouldn't have been set there, or should have signage, at least. Most importantly, the conversation about not being in the course should have been made with by a coach, embassedor, patroller, etc., and should have gone something like this:
"Excuse me sir"
"Yes"
"This course is not open to the public. I realize that it's not roped off, but our racers would appreciate your cooperation."
"Oh. I didn't know. Thanks."
When I was learning (yes, way back then), such etiquite was part of the ski lessons. You stay out of courses unless you have permission. You don't stop where you can't be seen. You steer clear of lessons, especially with little kids and beginners. You filled in your sitzmark. You don't jump in someone's line. That was then.
I'm not surprised the poster was unaware of this. No, he shouldn't have been in the course. No, the course probably shouldn't have been set there, or should have signage, at least. Most importantly, the conversation about not being in the course should have been made with by a coach, embassedor, patroller, etc., and should have gone something like this:
"Excuse me sir"
"Yes"
"This course is not open to the public. I realize that it's not roped off, but our racers would appreciate your cooperation."
"Oh. I didn't know. Thanks."
JasonE
New member
How? If there were no ropes or signs saying to stay off, how is a BEGINNER skier skiing on a BEGINNER trail (as this was) supposed to know? Hell - until this post, I didn't have any idea that gates are set up for training without being roped off. For that matter, this is the first time I've even heard the term "gates". Sure, I've seen ski racing on TV during the olympics, and I know they do racing down Challenger at Wachusett, but every time I've experienced ski racing the trail has been closed (the entire trail).
I've always thought that if the trail was open, you could ski the trail. I didn't assume gates were put up and removed at random, I always thought they were just always there. When the trail is closed, they're being used for racing. When the trail is open, they're not. I've never skied through gates mostly because I don't know how and don't feel comfortable with it, but by the end of this season I might have considered it.
Point is - how on earth can you expect beginner skiers (or even skiers who aren't beginners, like me, but have only been skiing a couple or few years and have never raced) to know that a course is closed if the course isn't closed????
I absolutely fault whoever put those gates up without roping them off. It's like expecting a driver's ed student to be able to drive through a construction zone without telling them they have to go around the cones.
On the other hand, the skier involved here had a right to be angry. I can definitely see where it would be a serious safety issue to have a non-racer running down a race course. I think the comment about boarders was totally out of line, but the anger was certainly genuine. But I think that the anger was misdirected - the skier should have been pissed at whoever failed to rope off the race course. Like I said, you can't set up a race course on a beginner trail and expect beginning skiers to have a clue that they can't ski in there (hell, most beginners I know wouldn't even know that it was a race course!)
Just my opinion as a skier who has spent a lot of time on green trails in the last year.
Jason
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