Whats with all the hating on the freestyle community?

[dmc]

Funny thing about blind spots..

One of the MOST frustrating thing about learning to telemark from snowboarding is not being able to look back up the trail before I make some kind of move cross the falline..
When I board - I can see uphill, downhill and everything on my toeside... I can easily glance uphill..

If people are serious about respect and all that stuff - they should respect a snowboards heelside blindspot..

 

[Marc]

Funny thing about blind spots..

One of the MOST frustrating thing about learning to telemark from snowboarding is not being able to look back up the trail before I make some kind of move cross the falline..
When I board - I can see uphill, downhill and everything on my toeside... I can easily glance uphill..

If people are serious about respect and all that stuff - they should respect a snowboards heelside blindspot..

I not only respect it, I take advantage of it.


Only if I know them, of course.

 

[JimG.]

Exact boot I want...

Size?

Either US size 9 or 9 1/2. Pretty sure they're 9 1/2.

 

[MESki]

If people are serious about respect and all that stuff - they should respect a snowboards heelside blindspot..

Yeah, that's exactly what I noticed when I started to look for it (seems like the most natural thing once you start thinking about it, but not everybody does)--skiers can't expect a boarder to look heelside across the hill any more than we can be expected to look behind us to see what's coming. Shocking number of people out there passing boarders too close on the heel side, though if you passed a skier at that distance, it wouldn't be as big a deal as long as they were turning the other way. That's also why I prefer to hear some warning if I'm going to get passed at speed at the bottom of a hill (especially around lifts), and I suspect a lot of otherwise savvy boarders don't bother to say anything because it hasn't really occurred to them.

Maybe it would tone down the general hostility if more people tried out the different types of equipment to get familiar with the limitations.

Matt

 

[JimG.]

Another first-time poster (and from Maine as well, oddly enough)--I've been thinking about this a lot for the past few days.

Last week, a kid on a snowboard took out one of my poles while I was stopped at the bottom of the hill (luckily--because if he hadn't hit the pole, he would've taken out my leg). He got up, asked if I was okay, got into an argument with my ski partner, and then took off down the hill when resort employees started yelling at him. First time that's happened to me...before then I'd heard people argue about skiers vs. boarders, but had no real reason to have an opinion one way or the other. In retrospect, this looks to me like a stupid, atypical, isolated event, but I think I understand a little better how this sort of thing gets sewn up in the larger narrative.

Aside from such stupidity/unluckiness, I think there are three or four major areas that cause most of the trouble:

a) Experienced skiers/riders are more likely to frighten beginner/intermediate types. My slow/safe skiing speed has increased a good deal since I started in the sport. If you're good enough to do freestyle tricks, you're definitely going to intimidate people and/or make them feel inferior as they work their wedge christies etc. Now you're going by them faster than makes them comfortable *and* they're jealous of your superior skill. Doing tricks in crowded beginner areas is bound to annoy.

b) People who get in over their heads are always dangerous. There seems to be some number of novice boarders who feel that mastering heeling in and going straight should be enough to do any trail on the mountain. I don't know if this has more to do with age, intelligence, or equipment really. My sense, though I haven't tried it, is that it's considerably less frightening to heel in down a steep slope than it is to snowplow it, and though I see a fair number of skiers on hills way beyond their skill set, I see more kids on boards going back for more. Since this is purely observational and a guess on my part, I'm happy to have somebody explain to me why this is totally wrong, if it is.

c) We all hate flat spots, but those with a board can't skate. This leads to conflict, particularly at flattish trail junctions where skiers tend to congregate thoughtlessly and boarders need/want a lot more speed to ensure they don't have to hop or unclip. Where an intermediate might feel it appropriate to scrub off some speed going into a narrow turn, a boarder often needs to build as much as possible to make it through. A warning ("On your right") is always better than the alternatives during a fast pass.

d) Skiers' blind spots face uphill, while boarders' blind spots face across. This simple fact explained at least 75% of the skier/boarder close calls I saw once I started looking at them more closely. You can't expect somebody to avoid you if they can't see you, but in many instances, skiers seem to expect boarders to turn the same way they do and vice versa.

I think it boils down to respecting the way other people want to enjoy themselves, and bearing in mind that you're not the only one on the hill, and that not everybody on the hill skis or rides at the same level of competence. I also think most people are more than willing to do that, as long as they feel like the other people out there are doing the same for them. That's what's most corrosive about the notion that skiers and boarders hate each other--the assumption that everybody on one team or another is unwelcome. Even a small courtesy (announce your presence, offer a boarder a push up a hill, give somebody space to pass, stop where you aren't blocking a trail, etc.) can go a long way toward making people feel better about one another. At the very least, it'd make it easier to discern the real punks from those of us who just occasionally do something stupid.

Matt

Well thought out, well worded. This is the type of observational feedback that helps us all understand better what other sliders on the hill experience. A little understanding and courtesy go a long way.

Our second new poster gained from this discussion. Glad you've decided to voice your opinion. Welcome!

 

[dmc]

Maybe it would tone down the general hostility if more people tried out the different types of equipment to get familiar with the limitations.

Matt

Slide a mile in another mans boots?


I guess I'm lucky cause I board, ski and telemark..

Since I'm learning to tele - I see more bad stuff then if I'm just cruising on my board..

 

[madskier6]

Here's my perspective. I have nothing against boarders, freestylers, twin tippers, etc. As long as they don't act like punks and go too fast down crowded trails. The same standard applies to skiers also.

I'm a skier. My wife and I taught our 4 children to ski figuring that no matter what they want to do later, they'll always have the skills to ski as a fall back. One of my sons is a snowboarder and I have no problem with it. I like to give him a hard time when we're skiing together because (i) he holds up the group to fasten his binding after getting off the lift, and (ii) on flat terrain he's slow and needs help from Dad to keep moving. It's all in fun, however, as all I care about is that he's out on the mountain having fun (with or without his parents). Due to the twin tip movement, he's told me he wants to come back to skiing (without giving up snowboarding). He's bugging me to buy him a pair of skis. I'm happy about it because it will enable him to ski with us when we go to MRG. I'm told that there are quite a few kids that are either coming back to skiing after snowboading or they're just sticking with skiing.

My youngest son (8 yrs old) is a great little skier that can rip any trail on the mountain. Initially he said that he wanted to try snowboading, which we supported. Recently he's changed his mind, however, and told us he wants to stick with skiing. Either way as long as he's having fun out in the mountains.

I'm glad that most resorts have park and pipe areas as most of my children (even the skiers) like to hang there. They also ski in the woods, powder and bumps with Dad so they're not one dimensional. The park and pipe gives them something they can have for themselves for a change when they've had enough of skiing with Mom and Dad. So while I'm the one spending the money at the resort, they're enjoying the park and pipe. I couldn't be happier about it! I occasionally go into the park and pipe with them for a run or two. Variety is the spice of life, baby!!

I know one parent in my town who is a big ski racer-type who prohibits his children from even trying snowboarding. I think that's ridiculous. Let 'em do what they want as long as it's out on the mountain. He has gotten all his kids into ski racing, which is great, but I think he's a little close-minded. I'm a firm believer that prohibiting your children from doing anything is not a good strategy (except for maybe playing with guns, drinking battery acid or playing in traffic).

While I have nothing against snowboarders, I have to admit that when I ski at MRG, it's nice to have only skiers on the mountain. I am not in favor per se of excluding boarders. But since MRG has decided to exclude boarders, I might as well enjoy some of the benefits. The many other benefits of MRG are why I go there (challenging terrain, natural snow, old style New England trails, less crowds, affordable lift tickets) not because they don't allow snowboarders. We ski many more days at places that allow snowboarders (mostly at Sugarbush) than at MRG. I think it would be great if someone opened a boarders-only mountain somewhere. Then boarders could have a place all to themselves to enjoy and they could thumb their noses at all the skiers.

My bottom line is let everyone do what they want as long as they do it safely. I'm not into bashing all boarders just because there are a few bad apples. Heck, they are some a**hole skiers too that I don't like. Be tolerant, let people do what they want and we all benefit in the long-run.

 

[JimG.]

I know one parent in my town who is a big ski racer-type who prohibits his children from even trying snowboarding. I think that's ridiculous. Let 'em do what they want as long as it's out on the mountain. He has gotten all his kids into ski racing, which is great, but I think he's a little close-minded. I'm a firm believer that prohibiting your children from doing anything is not a good strategy (except for maybe playing with guns, drinking battery acid or playing in traffic).

Another excellent post. I have 3 boys and they are into skiing first and foremost. My 2 oldest always ask me if they can snowboard and I always tell them "Yes", but they never seem to get around to it. I think they want to hear me say it's OK and that's it, my guess is that if I said "No" then I'd be buying snowboards instead of skis.

I know several parents like this one you mention; you can tell them from other families because their kids never smile. I deal with a few on my boys' soccer teams. I think it's very sad because by and large, these kids who get pushed into things often burn out at 13 or 14 and stop participating all together.

Like you, I don't push my kids into specific activities. My concern is that they have activities to participate in and that they enjoy some time outdoors. As a result, they tend to want to do the things their parents are doing. That makes us very happy.

 

[AdironRider]

Another first-time poster (and from Maine as well, oddly enough)--I've been thinking about this a lot for the past few days.

Last week, a kid on a snowboard took out one of my poles while I was stopped at the bottom of the hill (luckily--because if he hadn't hit the pole, he would've taken out my leg). He got up, asked if I was okay, got into an argument with my ski partner, and then took off down the hill when resort employees started yelling at him. First time that's happened to me...before then I'd heard people argue about skiers vs. boarders, but had no real reason to have an opinion one way or the other. In retrospect, this looks to me like a stupid, atypical, isolated event, but I think I understand a little better how this sort of thing gets sewn up in the larger narrative.

Aside from such stupidity/unluckiness, I think there are three or four major areas that cause most of the trouble:

a) Experienced skiers/riders are more likely to frighten beginner/intermediate types. My slow/safe skiing speed has increased a good deal since I started in the sport. If you're good enough to do freestyle tricks, you're definitely going to intimidate people and/or make them feel inferior as they work their wedge christies etc. Now you're going by them faster than makes them comfortable *and* they're jealous of your superior skill. Doing tricks in crowded beginner areas is bound to annoy.

b) People who get in over their heads are always dangerous. There seems to be some number of novice boarders who feel that mastering heeling in and going straight should be enough to do any trail on the mountain. I don't know if this has more to do with age, intelligence, or equipment really. My sense, though I haven't tried it, is that it's considerably less frightening to heel in down a steep slope than it is to snowplow it, and though I see a fair number of skiers on hills way beyond their skill set, I see more kids on boards going back for more. Since this is purely observational and a guess on my part, I'm happy to have somebody explain to me why this is totally wrong, if it is.

c) We all hate flat spots, but those with a board can't skate. This leads to conflict, particularly at flattish trail junctions where skiers tend to congregate thoughtlessly and boarders need/want a lot more speed to ensure they don't have to hop or unclip. Where an intermediate might feel it appropriate to scrub off some speed going into a narrow turn, a boarder often needs to build as much as possible to make it through. A warning ("On your right") is always better than the alternatives during a fast pass.

d) Skiers' blind spots face uphill, while boarders' blind spots face across. This simple fact explained at least 75% of the skier/boarder close calls I saw once I started looking at them more closely. You can't expect somebody to avoid you if they can't see you, but in many instances, skiers seem to expect boarders to turn the same way they do and vice versa.

I think it boils down to respecting the way other people want to enjoy themselves, and bearing in mind that you're not the only one on the hill, and that not everybody on the hill skis or rides at the same level of competence. I also think most people are more than willing to do that, as long as they feel like the other people out there are doing the same for them. That's what's most corrosive about the notion that skiers and boarders hate each other--the assumption that everybody on one team or another is unwelcome. Even a small courtesy (announce your presence, offer a boarder a push up a hill, give somebody space to pass, stop where you aren't blocking a trail, etc.) can go a long way toward making people feel better about one another. At the very least, it'd make it easier to discern the real punks from those of us who just occasionally do something stupid.

Matt

First of all welcome and you make some great points. Notably your mentioning of flat spots and snowbaording. After my recent trip to Gore 2 weeks ago I came across 2 instances where I was coming down fairview (the black off the gondi that brings around to the two lifts just below the gondi summit - I think its called fairview) and there is a huge uphill spot that is an absolute pain on a snowboard. Both times skiers yelled at me to slow down after they blocked the entire run out. In these cases I feel there is nothing I can do as Im sure that skier would be just as pissed if I stopped and took up the trail while I unbuckled then hobbled over to where I could strap in again. Also the notion of a boarders blindspot is CRITICALto the understanding of this conflict. I also have been in a situation where I made a harmless heelside turn only to almost run into another skier or rider who was following to close.

I think the main idea that people need to come to grasp with is that we are all traveling at a high rate of speed down a very slick surface. Things are going to go wrong at some point, and it doesnt matter whether your a skier or a boarder, but rather that you just understand the situation, and try to prevent it in the future.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but personally I think the conflicts between skiers and riders is much less then it was years ago. Skiers where less accepting when snowboarders where relatively few, but now most of us old guys look at it as just another way down the mountain. I kid around with boarders who are freinds of mine, and they give us skiers shots, but just in fun.

There may be holder overs from 3-5 time a year poser types, but real skiers I know are fine with boarders.

 

[JimG.]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but personally I think the conflicts between skiers and riders is much less then it was years ago. Skiers where less accepting when snowboarders where relatively few, but now most of us old guys look at it as just another way down the mountain. I kid around with boarders who are freinds of mine, and they give us skiers shots, but just in fun.

There may be holder overs from 3-5 time a year poser types, but real skiers I know are fine with boarders.

I agree on all points mentioned here. Frankly, online forums are where most of the snowboarder/skier animosity persists, and with all these well thought out posts I think it's clear that even online the misunderstandings are diminishing.

 

[Mark D]

OK. heres my $0.02 after reading this entire thing. and this is comming from a "park rat" manily b/c at my home mountian their ins't much more than the park. I have been a "hardcore" snowboarder for 4 years now. i tryed skiing this year and loved it. so i bought a pair of atomic tweaks last night. I would also love to get my hands on a hardboot set up. i've been trying for about 2 years but its unbelivily expansive.

Now, that being said here's what i think is going on.

the 1-3 times a year skiier really needs to be aware of the heelside blindspot. I hit a small child (maybe 6 or 7) this year just b/c of the fact that i couln't see him. We both fell and once i relised what happend i unstraped and whent to help the kid up. I helped him put his ski's back on ect. then once im done doing that his dad comes over and starts yelling at me that i should of been paying more attetion to were his kid was. but the fact is he was in my blind spot for a good 10 seconds. i was aculy wounering were he whent (saw him earler when i glinced up hill) so i started to stop as the kid tryed to pass me we both fell. now as his dad and the son leave i hear the dad yell "f**ing snowboarders their usless. no that made me angry at the skiier. accents like that happing are probly what fuled the hate between skiiers/boarders

2. Flat spots they suck i hate them but its a part of life. i've been yelled at by a ski patrol man to slow down through one of these spots, and you know what happend? I stoped and had to unstrap. I then skated to were i could strap in again and was then yelled at by the same ski patroler. who i got into an aurgment with and had my pass for the day pulled. (never again wil i go to cammelback)

3. terrin parks. They bring in kids. everybody on a snowboard wounts to think their a park rat. i'de be susprised if they didn't bring in a lot of revenue.

and as for carving. i like to think i can carve a turn. in fact i have the most fun when im carving fast and low. then at the headwalls i jump do a nice big floting 180 and do the same thing switch (backwords.) i have a lot of fun doing it. but im also one of the few boarders that i've seen that know how to do that.

just my $0.02

 

[trailertrash]

bol

mark,
check out the classifieds here:
http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=33

and the ride boards as well.

 

[JimG.]

the 1-3 times a year skiier really needs to be aware of the heelside blindspot. I hit a small child (maybe 6 or 7) this year just b/c of the fact that i couln't see him. We both fell and once i relised what happend i unstraped and whent to help the kid up. I helped him put his ski's back on ect. then once im done doing that his dad comes over and starts yelling at me that i should of been paying more attetion to were his kid was. but the fact is he was in my blind spot for a good 10 seconds. i was aculy wounering were he whent (saw him earler when i glinced up hill) so i started to stop as the kid tryed to pass me we both fell. now as his dad and the son leave i hear the dad yell "f**ing snowboarders their usless. no that made me angry at the skiier. accents like that happing are probly what fuled the hate between skiiers/boarders

Yes, I agree that skiers must be made aware of and responsible for staying out of the snowboarder's blind spot. I recognized that fact years ago and I have never had an incident with a snowboarder for that reason.

And Mark, the only useless person there when you fell with the child was the father. Where the F was he when it happened? Why wasn't he helping put his child's skis back on? Listen, when I'm teaching my kids (not so much my 9 and 11 year olds, but certainly my 3 1/2 year old), nobody gets near my kids on the slopes without going though me first.
And you're not getting through me, period.

And every now and then I offer to help a slow moving or stopped snowboarder on a traverse by pulling them along with my poles, or just giving them my poles and skating alongside. I get alot of weird looks for doing that.