Where are the moguls? A brief look at the demise of moguls.

[Greg]

Interesting commentary by BushMogulMaster:

http://forums.mogulskiing.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=985

This is very well said:

But as grooming of steeper terrain became commonplace, moguls officially became residents of the most difficult terrain only. There were no longer moguls on low-angle runs. The power tillers would chew right through the bumps, and the winch was ready to assist whenever necessary. They could even have groomed the steeper expert runs, but often they left the moguls there, because the trail was for experts anyway, right??? Herein lies the conundrum, and the reason that mogul skiing began a slow, painful terminal illness in the early 90s. If the only mogul terrain available to skiers from the mid-90s until now has been almost exclusively expert, then how are intermediates and aspiring skiers expected to learn to ski moguls? You can drill the flats all you want, but you can't learn to ski moguls on a 35 degree slope. Learning terrain must be available. People are quick to argue that areas only groomed more because there was more demand to groom. And, to a certain extent, this is true. As the boomer generation aged, they gave up on the adventure and adrenaline aspects of skiing, seeking a more tame experience. Only some, however. And they were the vocal ones, demanding more grooming when 80% of the mountain was already flat as a pancake. The greatest chunk of this "demand" was nothing more than perceived demand. It seemed like that's what they wanted! But as with many industries, you can't trust your clientele to truly know what they want without providing them the chance to experience all of their options. That's what the ski industry took away: the option to learn mogul skiing. So then, not only the boomers were skiing flat groomers, but the younger generation of skiers was learning on flat terrain, and never venturing into the bumps.

Thanks for the Sundown nod too, BMM!

 

[deadheadskier]

I'm not so sure I agree with everything in that statement. Look at Okemo. I grew up skiing there and you had ONE bump run. ONE. It was Sel's Choice. Occasionally they'd let bumps form on Ledges and a few other trails, but they were mowed down frequently. Now look at the options they have there.

There are certainly signature bump runs like Outer Limits that see the grooming teeth way to often and aren't what they once were, however, I'd say that bump skiing overall is as good or better than it's ever been in New England.

That opinion is based upon my own experiences skiing bumps since the say 1984 when I was 9 and really started getting into them.

I chalk up much of the above statement as a false 'Back in the good ole days' train of thought that is often said in all walks of life, but simply isn't true. People remember things as being better than they actually were.......fish stories.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I don't think so, DHS. Killington is a great example. Perhaps an extreme example, but it illustrates the point well. I've been to Killington a handful of times in recent years, at different points in the season. I have had to search and struggle to find even mediocre bumps. The hotspots from years past were either groomed, or had been groomed recently enough that the bumps were horrid. Superstar, Outer Limits, Cascade, etc., et. al. The list at Killington could go on and on and on. There are plenty of other areas with similar stories. Even Sugarbush went through a period under ASC where most of the mountain was groomed, including runs like Hammerhead, Exterminator, Twist, Ripcord, etc. Fortunately, that is no longer the case at the Bush.

Okemo doesn't fit this theory well, because they have been all about grooming from day 1. That's just the Okemo story. They probably have more bumps now that they every have. But that's as a result of the grooming-centric operation that Okemo has always been in the past.

 

[wa-loaf]

My early years mainly focus on Sugarloaf and I'd have to say they have just as many now as they did in the 80's and 90's. I don't remember them ever being on easy trails. I learned (I use this term loosely) to ski them, mainly just by throwing myself down Wintersway and Skidder over and over again.

But Sugarloaf may be different.

 

[Glenn]

My wife was able to scoot down the skier's left side of Bear Trap this past spring. I'd like to have her make a few more runs down there. She'll ski pretty much anything, however, the moguls to intimidate her.

 

[Greg]

My wife was able to scoot down the skier's left side of Bear Trap this past spring. I'd like to have her make a few more runs down there. She'll ski pretty much anything, however, the moguls to intimidate her.

Get her to Sundown a few nights this season to ski the Exhibition bumps.

 

[Glenn]

Get her to Sundown a few nights this season to ski the Exhibition bumps.

:idea: Holy crap! I didn't even think of that! That really is a good idea.

"Hon, we're going to Sundown to learn moguls."

"Do they have any other trails there?"

"Not that I'm aware of..."

 

[ta&idaho]

Very interesting--and technologically detailed--perspective, coming from a professional groomer and mogul devotee. I can't comment too much on the historical accuracy (my observation is that the bump runs have moved, rather than disappeared, at the mountains I grew up skiing), but I do appreciate the efforts to create a mogul "renaissance." Ironically, at places like Sundown, groomers are now helping create terrain diversity by seeding bump lines where they may not otherwise exist. Also, to be fair to the "younger generation of skiers," they've introduced their own form of terrain diversity (parks, pipes, etc.) that definitely keeps things interesting (even if I can't hack it myself). There are certainly resorts that seem intent on mowing everything flat (Jiminy Peak comes to mind), but most of the places I've skied recently seem to have embraced a something-for-everybody approach.

 

[drjeff]

Interesting commentary by BushMogulMaster:

http://forums.mogulskiing.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=985

This is very well said:



Thanks for the Sundown nod too, BMM!

Yup, well put. You've got 3 basically large populations of folks on the hill that want non bump runs - Baby Boomer cruisers, Terrain Park crowd, and the few time a year day trip crowd. And for many mountains, those 3 groups will comprise well over 50%, if not closer to 75-80% of the customers on the hill. Very often the Baby Boomer cruiser crowd and the terrain park crowd will be wanting trails that could very well be used for the bump crowd (both low angle and steeper terrain). That puts a premium on trail selection as to what gets built with park features, what gets groomed over and over and over and what will be left to bump up (and hence not be available for cruising for a few weeks). Add in mountains that have a race program and then you've got another group looking for flat terrain and the challenges that face the mountain ops crew in terms of figuring out how to satisfy as many customers as possible with a variety of terrain to 1st get them to the mountain and then get them back as repeat customers isn't an easy task by any means.

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't think so, DHS. Killington is a great example. Perhaps an extreme example, but it illustrates the point well. I've been to Killington a handful of times in recent years, at different points in the season. I have had to search and struggle to find even mediocre bumps. The hotspots from years past were either groomed, or had been groomed recently enough that the bumps were horrid. Superstar, Outer Limits, Cascade, etc., et. al. The list at Killington could go on and on and on. There are plenty of other areas with similar stories. Even Sugarbush went through a period under ASC where most of the mountain was groomed, including runs like Hammerhead, Exterminator, Twist, Ripcord, etc. Fortunately, that is no longer the case at the Bush.

Okemo doesn't fit this theory well, because they have been all about grooming from day 1. That's just the Okemo story. They probably have more bumps now that they every have. But that's as a result of the grooming-centric operation that Okemo has always been in the past.

The late 80's to late 90's were far worse at most areas than they are today, Killington being the exception. Just because Killington was the mogul capital of the east, doesn't mean that how things are there is what it means in the east overall. ASC definitely was a groom heavy organization going on the premise of catering to the one week a season millionaire executive who wanted to go back to the office and brag that he skied Outer Limits.

As for Okemo, yes grooming has also been their story since the Muellers took over. Their groomers are the reason why it's a great destination for bumpers today though. I don't think anywhere invests as much to put forth a quality bump product as they do.

And if you go back before the 80's, I challenge you to look at some of the old school video's and tell me bumps were better back then than they are today. Most of them were completely misshaped and the 'pros' didn't have a clue how to ski them. Those bumps were the best they had too.....usually the case when shooting ski footage.

The biggest reason I'd say that you saw a period (again mid 80's to late 90's, not today) where there were far fewer bumps is grooming technology and better green condition of trails. stumps and what not eroded down, more blasting of ledge and mowing. Many of the trails that weren't groomed back in the day was because they simply couldn't get a machine up them. Now all these areas start getting the fancy new winch cats and they got over zealous.

Maybe Killington and Sugarbush have seen better days as far as bumps, but I'd say as a whole, it's the best it's ever been in New England. Seeding and top coating has given us what mother nature never consistently could. That along with simply having far more acreage than 20 years ago combines for as good as it's ever been for the region as a whole.

 

[Greg]

The irony is that mountains don't have to devote a lot of terrain to bumps. Quite frankly, most bumpers I know are more than happy to lap a single run with a several good lines. The key is doing a good job of initially seeding the run if need be, and then maintaining it with intermittent snowmaking. When the run starts to get too gnarley or whaled, build a new field elsewhere, and then mash the original. If every mountain could just devote one or two trails to bumps on at least 75% of the mountain's vertical, most mogul skiers would be more than content. I would spread myself around a lot more, but outside of Hunter and maybe BEast, there really are no other mountains with bumps better than those at Sundown south of NNE.

 

[deadheadskier]

The irony is that mountains don't have to devote a lot of terrain to bumps. Quite frankly, most bumpers I know are more than happy to lap a single run with a several good lines. The key is doing a good job of initially seeding the run if need be, and then maintaining it with intermittent snowmaking. When the run starts to get too gnarley or whaled, build a new field elsewhere, and then mash the original. If every mountain could just devote one or two trails to bumps on at least 75% of the mountain's vertical, most mogul skiers would be more than content. I would spread myself around a lot more, but outside of Hunter and maybe BEast, there really are no other mountains with bumps better than those at Sundown south of NNE.

very true statement. I would venture to say that close to 50% of my time on skis in my life has been on Sel's Choice.

Variety is great, but one decent bump run and I'm content. I don't ski them exclusively like I once did, but if there is no powder to be had or decent snow in the trees, 50% of my skiing I want to be on moguled terrain.

 

[Greg]

if there is no powder to be had or decent snow in the trees, 50% of my skiing I want to be on moguled terrain.

"Bump" the percentage to 75% and I'm right there with ya.

 

[frankm938]

i think people want bumps, they just dont want spaced out walls caused by snowboards and wider skis. before wide skis were used, everybody was on skis that required you to make a lot of turns in order to get down a powder run. (nice tight bumps formed) now, anyone can get on a big set of boards and crank out big powder turns (spaced out bumps get formed)
hence the need for seeded bumps.
at killington, whenever they groom half a run and leave the other half bumped up, 90% of the people on the run are on the mogul side. so i think plenty of people still want bumps, they just want better bumps (like we skied before wide skis)

 

[Jeffy]

Seeding and top coating has given us what mother nature never consistently could. That along with simply having far more acreage than 20 years ago combines for as good as it's ever been for the region as a whole.

I would like to point out that skiers make moguls, not mother nature. Although I did hear she just bought some Cabrawlers off of eBay.

 

[Greg]

i think people want bumps, they just dont want spaced out walls caused by snowboards and wider skis. before wide skis were used, everybody was on skis that required you to make a lot of turns in order to get down a powder run. (nice tight bumps formed) now, anyone can get on a big set of boards and crank out big powder turns (spaced out bumps get formed)
hence the need for seeded bumps.
at killington, whenever they groom half a run and leave the other half bumped up, 90% of the people on the run are on the mogul side. so i think plenty of people still want bumps, they just want better bumps (like we skied before wide skis)

GS bumps suck.

 

[Skimaine]

I agree with BMM's basic premise. I would like to see more low-angle terrain bumped or left un-groomed. Tough to learn on the steep stuff.

 

[jaywbigred]

The late 80's to late 90's were far worse at most areas than they are today, Killington being the exception. Just because Killington was the mogul capital of the east, doesn't mean that how things are there is what it means in the east overall. ASC definitely was a groom heavy organization going on the premise of catering to the one week a season millionaire executive who wanted to go back to the office and brag that he skied Outer Limits.

As for Okemo, yes grooming has also been their story since the Muellers took over. Their groomers are the reason why it's a great destination for bumpers today though. I don't think anywhere invests as much to put forth a quality bump product as they do.

And if you go back before the 80's, I challenge you to look at some of the old school video's and tell me bumps were better back then than they are today. Most of them were completely misshaped and the 'pros' didn't have a clue how to ski them. Those bumps were the best they had too.....usually the case when shooting ski footage.

The biggest reason I'd say that you saw a period (again mid 80's to late 90's, not today) where there were far fewer bumps is grooming technology and better green condition of trails. stumps and what not eroded down, more blasting of ledge and mowing. Many of the trails that weren't groomed back in the day was because they simply couldn't get a machine up them. Now all these areas start getting the fancy new winch cats and they got over zealous.

Maybe Killington and Sugarbush have seen better days as far as bumps, but I'd say as a whole, it's the best it's ever been in New England. Seeding and top coating has given us what mother nature never consistently could. That along with simply having far more acreage than 20 years ago combines for as good as it's ever been for the region as a whole.

Without any scientific data to back it up, I have to disagree DHS, and agree with BMM. I might make a good test case...I skied almost exclusively in Vermont+ upstate NY ski areas from when I started skiing (1991) through the time I got my license (1996) . Once I got my license I skied only local NJ/PA podunk ski areas; during college I skied mostly at Greek Peak and out west, and during law school didn't ski at all. So I had a 9 year hiatus from skiing New England resorts from 1996 to 2005, and when I got back to these mountains, the moguls that I had feared as an intermediate where gone, much to my now-much more advanced skier dismay...

Okemo is the exception (in a positive way...and I have often sung their praises for their devotion to seeding), and probably so is Killington (in a negative way). But growing up learning to ski in the early 90s, I remember bumps everywhere. As a beginner/intermediate, I remember being scared of them and having to constantly make excuses to avoid having to ski them. Now, they are much harder to find.

I've skied 25+ days each for the last 4 seasons, almost exclusively via weekend trips to New England, and I'd say on at least half those trips the mountain had 0-1 open (and this is key--closed off, iced over bumps don't count) bump run. I've had these experiences at Stratton (repeatedly), Whiteface, Bromley, and Bolton Valle, to name a few...

Additionally, I ski with my girlfriend, who is, I'd say, a very strong intermediate, and thus she serves as a good barometer. She loves low angle bumps (thanks Mt. Ellen!!!!!!), but many times we go to a resort and the only trails with decent lines are the toughest trails, and she won't ski those trails. It psychs her out, and sometimes for good reason. This has happened to us at Stowe and Sugarbush (prior to last year/at Lincoln Peak) repeatedly, as well as at Stratton (repeatedly).

So, its just my opinion, but I think its crazy to say bump skiing in the east is the best its ever been.

*** I do agree that lines have actually gotten better tho. Probably a combo of a) seeding and b) only expert bump skiers left...

 

[AdironRider]

I think bumps are going to the wayside for the same reasons that ski ballet and aerials are now not even part of the picture. They just arent that appealing to 90% of the ski population. Most older folks dont want to ski them. Beginners and intermediates dont really have the skills to enjoy them. Snowboarders get their kicks elsewhere, and experts nowadays tend to prefer glades, steeps, and powder. If I ran a ski area Id have just one run with bumps, make em really good ones, and call it a day. They just arent really that fun.

 

[Puck it]

FYI, Cannon has started to leave bumps on the sides of a lot of the runs in particular the front five, and also Bypass. Hardscrabble goes without saying. I think the new manager gets his clientele very well.