You’re out of Control

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Alot of the parents controlling their kids on a leash are pretty bad skiers. I've seen parents skiing sort of to the side of the kid on the leash...essentially waiting to clothesline someone.

 

[dropKickMurphy]

With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.

Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier? Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?

People do have a right to take their time on terrain that may be difficult for them. Everyone has to learn, and one of the ways that people learn is to challenge themselves on terrain that is beyond their comfort zone. That doesn't mean they have the right to stop in a blind spot; but they are entitled to some slack if they are trying their best to make their way down the slope. It is your responsibility, as a more skilled skier, to get by them in a safe manner.

Skiing fast is not the sign of an expert. Skiing blind is not the sign of an expert.

An expert is someone who can choose the best line down a challenging slope, and use the appropriate speed and techniques for the situation and conditions. Experts do take risks, and they do make mistakes. But an expert doesn't purposely put other people in danger; which is what you do when you ski an inbounds resort trail at a speed where you cannot avoid a potential collision with an unseen person.

 

[JimG.]

With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.

Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier? Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?

People do have a right to take their time on terrain that may be difficult for them. Everyone has to learn, and one of the ways that people learn is to challenge themselves on terrain that is beyond their comfort zone. That doesn't mean they have the right to stop in a blind spot; but they are entitled to some slack if they are trying their best to make their way down the slope. It is your responsibility, as a more skilled skier, to get by them in a safe manner.

Skiing fast is not the sign of an expert. Skiing blind is not the sign of an expert.

An expert is someone who can choose the best line down a challenging slope, and use the appropriate speed and techniques for the situation and conditions. Experts do take risks, and they do make mistakes. But an expert doesn't purposely put other people in danger; which is what you do when you ski an inbounds resort trail at a speed where you cannot avoid a potential collision with an unseen person.

And that's all that needs to be said about this.

 

[bvibert]

With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.

Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier? Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?

People do have a right to take their time on terrain that may be difficult for them. Everyone has to learn, and one of the ways that people learn is to challenge themselves on terrain that is beyond their comfort zone. That doesn't mean they have the right to stop in a blind spot; but they are entitled to some slack if they are trying their best to make their way down the slope. It is your responsibility, as a more skilled skier, to get by them in a safe manner.

Skiing fast is not the sign of an expert. Skiing blind is not the sign of an expert.

An expert is someone who can choose the best line down a challenging slope, and use the appropriate speed and techniques for the situation and conditions. Experts do take risks, and they do make mistakes. But an expert doesn't purposely put other people in danger; which is what you do when you ski an inbounds resort trail at a speed where you cannot avoid a potential collision with an unseen person.

And that's all that needs to be said about this.

Agreed, very well said dropKickMurphy.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.

Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier? Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?

People do have a right to take their time on terrain that may be difficult for them. Everyone has to learn, and one of the ways that people learn is to challenge themselves on terrain that is beyond their comfort zone. That doesn't mean they have the right to stop in a blind spot; but they are entitled to some slack if they are trying their best to make their way down the slope. It is your responsibility, as a more skilled skier, to get by them in a safe manner.

Skiing fast is not the sign of an expert. Skiing blind is not the sign of an expert.

An expert is someone who can choose the best line down a challenging slope, and use the appropriate speed and techniques for the situation and conditions. Experts do take risks, and they do make mistakes. But an expert doesn't purposely put other people in danger; which is what you do when you ski an inbounds resort trail at a speed where you cannot avoid a potential collision with an unseen person.

I agree...

Skiers need the agility and control to avoid natural, manmade and human hazards. But if you have a clear ski slope in front of you and want to get in a low aerodynamic tuck ..and ski so fast your helmet vents whistle..I see it as O.K.

I like to ski fast but if the slope is crowded..I switch my style up...for example at Killington in April I was skiing with All-Skiing and MadSkier on Superstar. The beginning of the run was littered with people and bumpy so I picked a narrow line and stuck in it...then when the run flattens out the trail opened up and there were only a few people so I could ski faster and make wider radius turns..then the bottom section was a cluster-f3ck of people so again..pick a narrow line..make alot of turns..and obvious ski slower..

One of the reasons I like to be at the mountain first is for those early morning uncrowded runs. First tracks on a groomer is steezy too..especially if you know there isn't a sould in front of you top to bottom. One of the things that makes skiing out west and up north better is less crowded slopes than here in PA. But at Stowe and Jackson Hole..there are a few overvcrowded trails an dangerous merges..where you have to stay alert..

I always feel safer skiing in the woods than on the trail. The few times I've skied with my gaper cousin..I feel it's way more dangerous standing on the side of the trail..halfway down the mountain then any race course. Part of the reason I wear a helmet is in case some 300 pound guy in an Eagles jacket and frozen jeans plows into me..while I'm adjusting my boot..I'll be less likely to be braindead.

The more I ski..the more I wait at the top of the run..for a minute to lett the crowds move down the hill a little. Then I can at least ski fast until I catch up to all the Tom Dick and Harrys..

 

[Phillycore]

FWIW... I've never plowed anyone (luckily for them I'm not tiny by any means) and I've never been plowed into either. I have taken a dive once or twice though to save someone from getting plowed when they made a really bad decision. (after all if they are in front of me it's my fault if I hit them no matter what the situation is, therefore I do whatever I possibly can to avoid the collision at all costs even if it means I'm taking the hit)

As I said before Survival skiing is an absolute must at places in Pa.

 

[bigbog]

weekends in the NE........

Weekends at New England resorts has often turned out to be a day-long exercise in varying one's turn radii..:roll: :lol: :lol: ..ready to take a somewhat controlled bellyflop... Easiest done..(as said)...skier in front has the right-of-way... I think getting cut off and attempting to maintain your momentum is one of the many causes of those late-afternoon, edge-of-trail crashes...I ended up going there ~7-8 seasons ago, late in the day..icy hardpack...poor tune..getting tired..didn't slow down enough for a comfortable, wide pass of beginner who traverses instead of edges..*EDIT:..and stay in control. Didn't have quite enough speed to reach the trees....but I would've been close had I not had the brilliant deduction to just take a flop.

 

[Stache]

I feel like the gaper always wins if the Ski Patroller is called..At least at Blue mountain..the skilled skiers are the ones who get in trouble..when in fact the ski patroller should be after the gapers not following the Skiers Responsibility code.

Skilled (and courteous and smart and considerate) skiers know to never ski faster than they can see. Kind of like driving at night, stay within your headlights reach. ALWAYS be able to turn or stop and avoid ANY STUPID people in front of you. If you hit them, or a lift tower, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

As for "kids on a leash", well one of the first instructors that my daughter had I think put it the best "if your child needs a leash for control, then they shouldn't be on anything but the learning area hill." Think about it, how many ski school programs to you see where the kids have anything more than a "lifting harness" on them or an "edgie wedgie" for tip control???

When you're dealing with a 2 1/2 yr a leash comes in handy and has helped her learn edging movements and develop muscle memory...and many ski school programs won't take kids before 3yrs old...those kids you're referring to are 4/5/6. Leash is also a 1:1 ratio...something you're not going with a typical ski school program. As long as its not used as a crutch, its a handy tool for age specific development.

 

[drjeff]

When you're dealing with a 2 1/2 yr a leash comes in handy and has helped her learn edging movements and develop muscle memory...and many ski school programs won't take kids before 3yrs old...those kids you're referring to are 4/5/6. Leash is also a 1:1 ratio...something you're not going with a typical ski school program. As long as its not used as a crutch, its a handy tool for age specific development.

If your kid's on a leash, you shouldn't be up on anything else than the beginner hill. An "edgie wedgie" and lots of laps on a flat magic carpet hill at first and then a slightly steeper magic carpet after that is what my kids went through for muscle memory/initial balance/ski movement learning. The toughest part for me as a parent with this was showing the restraint to keep my kids on the proper hill until THEY were ready for something bigger/steeper.

I know that I'm going to catch some sh$t for this next statement, but as a parent I strongly believe that unless you're a PSIA instructor, one of the best things you can do for you're childs ski development is let the pro's handle it. It's great to ski with your kids, but as a primary teacher, even if your a great skier, you probably don't have the knck and/or patience to teach your child in the maner with which he/she will respond and progress the quickest. Even with the majority of the children's instructors being non PSIA former racers that have minimal instructor training, they still see ALOT of kids, and the vast majority of them tend to pick up on what works/doesn't with the kids alot quicker than you as an untrained, but yet highly skillfull parent would. Plus, many kids are going to listen better to the instructor than you as a parent

 

[Greg]

I know that I'm going to catch some sh$t for this next statement, but as a parent I strongly believe that unless you're a PSIA instructor, one of the best things you can do for you're childs ski development is let the pro's handle it. It's great to ski with your kids, but as a primary teacher, even if your a great skier, you probably don't have the knck and/or patience to teach your child in the maner with which he/she will respond and progress the quickest. Even with the majority of the children's instructors being non PSIA former racers that have minimal instructor training, they still see ALOT of kids, and the vast majority of them tend to pick up on what works/doesn't with the kids alot quicker than you as an untrained, but yet highly skillfull parent would. Plus, many kids are going to listen better to the instructor than you as a parent

In most cases, this is probably true. Every kid is different though. My oldest is initially very shy, until she warms up to the situation (then look out!). I put her in the Puffins camp at Sundown right as she was turning 4. It was her first time on skis. She did not like it and really didn't get much out of it. Half the time she just ended up watching the other kids with her skis off.

I gave her the benefit of the doubt that season and figured she needed to mature a bit. This past spring a few months after turning 5, I enrolled her in a session of mini bears at Sugarbush which is regarded pretty highly as a ski school. Very similar result. She was beyond a lot of what they were teaching her and just didn't want to be there. She was crying when I picked her up from her lesson. She told me she just wants to ski with me so I took her up on the hill and she did some of her best skiing to date.

A lot of the initial ski "experience" is just hanging out with dad. Sometimes there's not even a whole lot of skiing involved. I plan to simply ski with my oldest, and ask her when she's ready to take a lesson again. For my youngest, I'll attempt the lesson route since again, all kids are different.

 

[campgottagopee]

Well maybe not, but you’re flying down the side of a trail and you need a couple of turns to slow down for a safe stop. You go around a slight bend and there’s someone right in your line that you either didn’t see or couldn’t. You see the fear in their eyes and you only have a split second to react.

Do you protect yourself the best you can for the impact?

Do you try to get by in the little gap between the skier and the trees? You might make it, you might eat wood.

Do you try to turn out the other side into other skier traffic?

What would you do? The true answer is you don’t know cause you have no time to think you just have to react or not and plow right into the person.

So my question is who’s been there and what happened in your case?

Something similar happened to me(@Greek) but at a moderate to slow speed. My buddy and I were straight lining a flat side by side discussing whetther or not we wanted to take a cut off trail over to chair 4. We were following a group of 3, one "safety ranger" and two others. We decided we would be heading over to chair 4, so the cut off was necessary, and so was speed to get over to the next pitch without skating. Not rippin speed by any means just a comfy stand up and cruise it. The peeps in front of us decided to stop right in the entrance of this trail which we needed to hit. I was going first so I was able to duck into the woods and pop up on the other side of them. My buddy tried the same and for the most part did a good job but did run over the tail of the "safety rangers" skis. Alot was said, but the jist of it was they knew they shouldn't have stopped there and we knew we were follwing too close. Stuff like that happens and I'm glad nobody got hurt.

 

[Highway Star]

First of all you are doing no where near 50 MPH. You might think so, but no. And you hit a person and knock them down you just keep going because this is your "fast run" and you dont like stopping when going fast? You really are a loser. No wonder you spend so much time on the internet...........

Hummm....while I can't speak for Mr. Cheesesandwich, I can tell you that I constantly ski groomers in the 35-50mph range, up to 60mph fairly often, and over 70mph on occasion. Yes, this is on a normal, groomed slope, in normal ski clothes. However, it's on long, metal-laminate skis, and a black/double black trail.

I've skied Blue Mountain once, and most certainly broke 50mph several times...

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

If your kid's on a leash, you shouldn't be up on anything else than the beginner hill. An "edgie wedgie" and lots of laps on a flat magic carpet hill at first and then a slightly steeper magic carpet after that is what my kids went through for muscle memory/initial balance/ski movement learning. The toughest part for me as a parent with this was showing the restraint to keep my kids on the proper hill until THEY were ready for something bigger/steeper.

I know that I'm going to catch some sh$t for this next statement, but as a parent I strongly believe that unless you're a PSIA instructor, one of the best things you can do for you're childs ski development is let the pro's handle it. It's great to ski with your kids, but as a primary teacher, even if your a great skier, you probably don't have the knck and/or patience to teach your child in the maner with which he/she will respond and progress the quickest. Even with the majority of the children's instructors being non PSIA former racers that have minimal instructor training, they still see ALOT of kids, and the vast majority of them tend to pick up on what works/doesn't with the kids alot quicker than you as an untrained, but yet highly skillfull parent would. Plus, many kids are going to listen better to the instructor than you as a parent

1. never said she was on anything other than learning area terrain...and in previous posts in this thread I mentioned she WONT be on any more advanced terrain until she can control her own speed by turning and can stop on her own.
2. You may have missed the part in the last post where I said the ski school (Sunday River) wouldn't take her until she was 3
3. I'm a former level 2..but she'll be getting out with ski school programs this winter because I agree, most kids will listen better to someone else

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Hummm....while I can't speak for Mr. Cheesesandwich, I can tell you that I constantly ski groomers in the 35-50mph range, up to 60mph fairly often, and over 70mph on occasion. Yes, this is on a normal, groomed slope, in normal ski clothes. However, it's on long, metal-laminate skis, and a black/double black trail.

I've skied Blue Mountain once, and most certainly broke 50mph several times...

I think the fastest I ever hit was near the bottom of the Sundance Trail at Jackson Hole. It's a groomed Blue from off the Gondola...My helmet vents usually start to whistle when I hit top speeds at Blue mountain..50+ mph and usually when I ski Sundance my helmet whistles the entire run. I usually make some big Super G turns at the top and check my speed a bit so I don't get too much air off the couple of cat-tracks..then the bottom half which is free of cat-tracks I just straight run and get low..some serious speed..a great first run of the day on a non powder day..and 2700+ vert was faster than a 3 minute song on my Ipod...mad steezy yo..Those sorts of runs is how I once skied 37,000 vert before lunch on a mad steezy hardpack day in 2007 when I racked up 61k+ vert. Reason to bring a two ski bag to J-hole..for fat skis and ice coast carvers..

My friend Mark who goes to Green Mountain College let me use his GPS for a run on a cruddy foggy spring day at Stowe. My max speed was 43mph just making wide controlled turns..which is what my comfort zone was due to the fog and spring slop..and it didn't feel that fast. I need to get a GPS for this season for sure...we really need to do an AZ radar gun day like they do at Snowbird over on Teton Gravity..

 

[2knees]

.My helmet vents usually start to whistle when I hit top speeds at Blue mountain..

that wasnt the vents on your helmet whistling......

 

[2knees]

I My max speed was 43mph .

I'm pretty sure you meant 43kph. Its ok though. we understand.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I'm pretty sure you meant 43kph. Its ok though. we understand.

quit trolling...43mph is not even Super G speed...just big wide turns..I love how when you lay down a hard carve..you accelerate..mad steezy yo..

skiing groomers real fast is a guilty pleasure of mine like 80s music and fat chicks..

 

[2knees]

quit trolling...:

lol alright alright.

i wanted to see you have a meltdown.

 

[Geoff]

Hummm....while I can't speak for Mr. Cheesesandwich, I can tell you that I constantly ski groomers in the 35-50mph range, up to 60mph fairly often, and over 70mph on occasion. Yes, this is on a normal, groomed slope, in normal ski clothes. However, it's on long, metal-laminate skis, and a black/double black trail.

I've skied Blue Mountain once, and most certainly broke 50mph several times...

That's a head-to-head I'd pay good money to see. Highway Star vs GrilledSteeze/Dougie. I suspect Highway Star would win based on pure fitness level.