I think it's time for another lesson

[skibum1321]

You don't see too many people carving through the trees. Carving isn't ideal in all situations - bumps for example, where you tend to skid from bump to bump. Sure, I'll carve down a groomer but that's about where it ends.

 

[JimG.]

You don't see too many people carving through the trees. Carving isn't ideal in all situations - bumps for example, where you tend to skid from bump to bump. Sure, I'll carve down a groomer but that's about where it ends.

Exactly!

 

[JimG.]

As far as skidding getting a bad name, I think that is from when someone is on too steep a slope or too challenging of a terrain. I have seen it over and over, mostly with snowboarders, but plenty of skiiers also. And it always seems to be on White Heat or some other such marquee steep spot. I do have to defer to those who suddelny find themselves in over their heads. But I see so many scrape their snowboard or skiis sideways down a hill, removing all the snow for 5 feet wide, then head right back up the lift to the very same run, instead of heading for less challenging terrain to perfect their skills. That, is what gives skidding a bad name.

I agree here...the locked up, totally torqued up death skid you speak of is awful to look at. That's not the type of skid I'm talking about.

It's OK if your tails break loose momentarily, but the sideways slide for life isn't skiing.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Tactically, you need to carve your turn and ride it right out of and across the fall line to keep your speed in check, rather letting the skis kick out (slip) across the fall line.

Not exactly right. The "slip" you refer to, skidding, checks speed just fine. In its most exagerated form, skidding is a hockey stop, which is the fastest way to safely stop on skis.

Carving is valuable not because it checks speed, but because it is efficient. And what's efficiency? A combination of speed and control.

-HDH

Carving is efficient because it does not check speed. If you carve but do not come out of the fallline, you're going to pick up speed. If you carve and ride the turn out of the fallline, you'll maintain control (by keeping the edges set) and reduce/control your speed by coming accross the fallline.

Many "upper intermediates/lower advanced" level skiers ski well on most terrain until they get on the steeps. It's there that they resort to skidding to get out of the fallline and get their speed in check. The problem is they're no longer on a set edge. They slow down, but do not have the level of control that they would if they were carving.

Hense, how I qualified my statement in my previous post as a Tactical aproach.

 

[HDHaller]

Tactically, you need to carve your turn and ride it right out of and across the fall line to keep your speed in check, rather letting the skis kick out (slip) across the fall line.

Not exactly right. The "slip" you refer to, skidding, checks speed just fine. In its most exagerated form, skidding is a hockey stop, which is the fastest way to safely stop on skis.

Carving is valuable not because it checks speed, but because it is efficient. And what's efficiency? A combination of speed and control.

-HDH

I would agree with sledhaulingmedic in this case. Any turn -- carved or not -- can be carried not only across the fall line, but until you're facing right back uphill. Trying to ski uphill will slow you down in a big hurry. I would argue that "turning to a stop" would keep you more in control then a hockey-stop would as well. Attempting to do a hockey stop in any sort of variable conditions will most likely give you a close up view of the snow to boot.

Interesting; I'd have to agree more with HD's analysis.... Carved turns are most efficient in terms of control and SPEED. If you want to go fast, you want to carve as much as possible.

To slow speed using carved turns only, turns need to be complete (rounded) and in some cases so complete that ski tips actually do start to point UP the fall line as sled and Kevin have pointed out.

Problem is, to maintain a carved turn motion has to be somewhat deliberate, not the best scenario for an emergency stop. That's where a skidded (slipped, hockey stop) turn is more effective.

Frankly, skidding is an art that is essential in anyone's ski arsenal. Sure, everyone wants to think they only carve and never skid, but that's just not true or even possible or desireable. Somewhere along the line, skid became a dirty skiing word.

I don't buy into that.

More thoughts:

When a racer enters the finish area and needs to stop in a hurry, he doesn't carve a turn uphill. He uses a hockey stop. He skids sideways. Skidding has lots of stopping power. What it lacks is direction control. It doesn't bring you across the fall line quickly.

To be precise, it's turn shape, not carving alone, that can also have stopping power. Yes, if you carve a turn that sends you right across or up the hill, you'll slow down or stop.

But when we link carved turns, we carve for efficiency: consistent speed and control over our direction of travel. Racers want to carve to MAINTAIN speed and direction control, certainly not to slow themselves down. So long as they have direction control, they want maximum speed!

-HDH

 

[LineSki15]

this is a good thread. I am one of those skiiers that starts to skid if presented with very steep terrain. I don't skid 20 feet down the trail, but my turns are more short skids than they are carved turns. what do you guys recommend to keep speed in check on steeps?

 

[hammer]

this is a good thread. I am one of those skiiers that starts to skid if presented with very steep terrain. I don't skid 20 feet down the trail, but my turns are more short skids than they are carved turns. what do you guys recommend to keep speed in check on steeps?

This is a good question...I remember being told to do more traversing when the terrain gets too steep for comfort, but you end up using more of the trail and you risk getting the faster skiers and riders :angry: at you...

 

[JimG.]

this is a good thread. I am one of those skiiers that starts to skid if presented with very steep terrain. I don't skid 20 feet down the trail, but my turns are more short skids than they are carved turns. what do you guys recommend to keep speed in check on steeps?

Could be 2 things:

1) Turn shape...Instead of getting your skis up on their edges early in the turn (immediately after the edge change after the last turn) and then allowing them to carve a nice arc, you're lazy early in the turn and wind up applying all your edge pressure at the end of the turn, thus skidding out.

2) Lack of fluidity...related to #1. Because all of your speed control comes at the end of the arc, you're holding on to that turn for dear life. That will not help, especially in icy terrain. Take a run and count out how long it takes you from the beginning to the end of your turns. Do it out loud, 1 mississippi, 2 mississippi, 3 mississippi, etc. If you find your turns are lasting 4 counts, take another run and try to make turns that last only 3 counts. Then try 2 counts. This will challenge everything you've ever thought about your technique, but stick with it. It'll keep you from hanging onto turns too long.

 

[LineSki15]

this is great advice, thanks guys.

 

[HDHaller]

this is a good thread. I am one of those skiiers that starts to skid if presented with very steep terrain. I don't skid 20 feet down the trail, but my turns are more short skids than they are carved turns. what do you guys recommend to keep speed in check on steeps?

This is a good question...I remember being told to do more traversing when the terrain gets too steep for comfort, but you end up using more of the trail and you risk getting the faster skiers and riders :angry: at you...

LineSki15,
If you're linking smooth, short turns and maintaining control, why not skid a little on the steeps? It wouldn't be the fastest way through a race course, but you're not talking about steeps with racing gates, are you? Even the best big-mountain skiers don't always carve skidless turns on the super-steeps. As Jim says above, knowing how to put a controlled skid into your turns is an important tool for every skier.
-HDH

 

[HDHaller]

4)Weight on the uphill ski.

Weight on the uphill ski? Hmmm. Uphillklimber, do you mean weight on the uphill ski AS WELL AS THE DOWNHILL SKI? ... because you used to have too much weight (pressure) on the downhill ski alone?
-HDH

 

[hammer]

Weight on the uphill ski? Hmmm. Uphillklimber, do you mean weight on the uphill ski AS WELL AS THE DOWNHILL SKI? ... because you used to have too much weight (pressure) on the downhill ski alone?

Yup, that's just about exactly what we used to do alot of, and still deal with from time to time.

We have seen some kids, as part of their lessons, ski down on one ski only. The results are fairly self evident. (No, I have never done that). I read in a ski magazine about 90/10, or something like that. Basically, when you travel thru a green area, to liven it up, they suggested that we place 90% of our weight on one ski and 10% on the other ski, and hold that relative weight distribution while we carve a green. This is to increase leg strength and help us to spread the weight a bit more. Depending on which leg you have the weight with 90% on, one turn will be easy and natural, while the other turn will task you a bit.

Anyways, I have never really accomplished the 90/10 thing yet. I do it for a turn or two, then I'm like "You gotta be kiddin' me!!!" I am also thinking, I should really be able to do this....


Hmmmm..... where to ski this weekend.....Skiis waxed? check....edges squared and sharp? Check.... ready to go???? You betcha!!!!

Thought I'd throw my $0.02 on this one...

One of my Christmas presents this year was a copy of the video "Breakthough on Skis I". Now, I'm not one to advocate substituting videos for real lessons, and the video is definitely a bit dated, but there was a lot of discussion about doing one-legged skiing so I thought I'd give it (i.e., the 90/10 split) a try on some easier trails. To my surprise, when I placed more of my focus on turning with the downhill ski, I found that I was able to get more of a carve out of the skis.

Nothing approaching the smooth motions of an expert, mind you, but it felt more like I was skiing in arcs than in zig-zags...

 

[bigbog]

....but my turns are more short skids than they are carved turns. what do you guys recommend to keep speed in check on steeps?

Could be 2 things:

1) Turn shape...Instead of getting your skis up on their edges early in the turn (immediately after the edge change after the last turn) and then allowing them to carve a nice arc, you're lazy early in the turn and wind up applying all your edge pressure at the end of the turn, thus skidding out.....

Outstanding point JimG !!!!!
Here is where I too lag behind in acquiring definite edging --> 60% not until the 2nd half of a turn ..only to apply too much outside leg extension/*Pressure* in that Last quarter...holding me back..off the boot tongue through what should be that transition-zone...!, but also putting me, for a couple seconds, in the backseat...as well ...essentially delaying every single turn. No wonder why I don't truly link very Many together smoothly...:idea:
My bruised left knee of a week ago is feeling great...and it's 24hrs & Counting!! for the Bronze Pass to kick in again... 8)

LineSki15...$.005,
Keeping one's upperbody(shoulders & hips) aligned& balanced, and level with the terrain really helps...letting that lowerbody do its thing, separate from upper..and having one's new/to_be inside hip take a slight lead down the fall-line.<-- may not be totally correct :-?, but just thinking this way seems to be working for upperbody alignment...

 

[HDHaller]

To my surprise, when I placed more of my focus on turning with the downhill ski, I found that I was able to get more of a carve out of the skis.

Hammer,
Before shaped skis, heavy weight/pressure on the downhill ski was the norm. Racers would even sometimes lift the uphill ski off the snow in the turn. An evening of pressure in the turn, and real two-ski carving, have become the popular norm only recently, with shaped skis. And many instructors, I think, over-emphasize the role of uphill-ski pressure.

Of the big-name instructor/author/video-makers out there, Lito Tejada-Flores, who made that Breakthrough On Skis video you write of, has been less taken with the new ways and has stuck with older ideas that still work for him, even on shaped skis. Hence, for example, his more narrow stance, and his discussion of more pressure on the downhill ski.

With each year, the instructing pundits all jump on new technical ideas: some valuable, some not. "It's all in the ankle!" the head monkey will cry in the fall, then all the little monkeys will talk about the ankle all winter. Tejada-Flores is a good instructor because, when this happens, he stands back, smirks, observes, and keeps teaching what he knows to be effective and true.

With shaped skis, we can now put more pressure than we used to on the uphill ski when we carve. What you discovered, however, is that one shouldn't overdo it. Thoughts?

-HDH

 

[subdude]

Remember shins touching tongue of boots imagine putting a quarter inbetween the shin and the boot now keep it there with the pressure also think of your turns as being "nice and round and on the ground" doing this forces you to keep that forward pressure on your boot and initiating a nice turnshape with the front of your ski instead of the tail kicking back at the end of the turn. Getting into a nice rythym and flow on your turns results in speed control through the turnshapes.

 

[LineSki15]

Ok dudes, I put some of this advice to the test this weekend and let me tell you, the whole shins against the boots thing is the key!! I felt more in control and was able to make better and faster turns. I also realized that when I did fall, it was because my weight got too far back and I would loose control. It really is all about getting your weight forward, and keeping your shins against the boots is a good way to remember to do it.

 

[Greg]

As far as turn initiation/driving the tips goes, this was a major breakthrough for me last year. One requirement here is having correctly fitted boots. You cannot have any heel lift at all! What I did last year was greatly exaggerate the tip driving movement; so much so that my tails would lift off the snow and swing around behind me mid-air. Obviously based on your style of skiing, you don't want to always ski this way, but if you can do this, you know that you have the ability to get good turn initiation. This movement is particularly helpful in the bumps too when you need to drive the tips down the back-side of the bump.

As far as backseating on scary terrain and using your hands to correct it: Once I get backseated, I vigorously "punch" forward with both hands and that usually pulls me out of it. Kind of counter-intuitive especially when intimidated, but being back-seat, like heel-lift, equals death, especially in bumps or on variable terrain. Also, take note of your uphill hand when you get in the backseat. That's the one you really need to drive forward which will not only help pull you out of the backseat, but keeps your upper body square.

I'm far from an expert and have never taken a lesson, but these are thing that have helped me as an aspiring advanced level skier.

 

[awf170]

but being back-seat, like heel-lift, equals death, especially in bumps or on variable terrain.

Only if I knew this before the Hunter gathering. :wink:



BTW, didn't someone get footage of that wipe out? If so, then where the heck is it?!

 

[bvibert]

BTW, didn't someone get footage of that wipe out? If so, then where the heck is it?!

Dude, pay attention... Video post. I only got the beginning of the crash though, I couldn't see the whole thing from my vantage point. You come into the frame at around 2:30. Your sick huck is sometime before that...

Kids these days... :roll:

 

[jack97]

Once I get backseated, I vigorously "punch" forward with both hands and that usually pulls me out of it.

Got this tip from a j(x) race instructor; another thing you can try is curling the toes. Curl it downwards (like clawing on the boots) will make the shin pressure the tongue and get you forward. Curl the toes upwards will get you in the back seat and ride the tails.