The Most Important Resort Improvement for the Summer of 2010

[deadheadskier]

What's your point now? Trying to hurt my feelings by telling me you think Trailboss is a better moderator?

All I was showing was you were the one who put the fists up first. That's it.

yet, you got to keep coming strong.

that's all I got for you. go ahead, you can have the last word. I know how much it means to you.

 

[Newpylong]

More like a water baloon if you ask me...

Their on snow product has had little change, Win wont even answer my questions on how much has been spent on base improvement vs on snow. The silence is deafening.

You should take some notes from the Trailboss Deadhead. At least he plays his moderator role correctly. What exactly am I reaping? It should be clear Im not going to go cry to my mom about some internet SB homers getting all worked up and calling me pathetic.

I've been letting this one ride out but come on dude, you're preaching to the choir on this one. Their "on snow" product? The place and snow speaks for itself. What else is there to improve? ASC pumped 27 Million into the place in 1996. They could use some more uphill pumping capacity but other than that the snowmaking is absolutely fine and every season has shown that time and time again.

What they HAVE fallen behind on is on mountain real estate and they are correcting that. I think any skier in the east would rank them right up their with Stowe, Jay and the Loaf overall. They haven't fallen behind at all...

 

[snoseek]

Hmmmmmm skiing sure was good today!

 

[deadheadskier]

The improvement I was most looking forward to was for Ragged to replace the devastatingly slow Spear triple. I thought that was on the roadmap for this summer, but there's no mention of it on their website. Not sure if that means it's not happening or not. They haven't exactly been good about keeping their website up to date. Anyway I'm crossing my fingers that it's going to happen.

As a passholder there last season and planned pass holder for next season, this is defiitely what I'm most interested in personally as well. I emailed Bob to see if any information will be forthcoming regarding on mountain improvements. I did meet many folks on the hill last year who didn't mind that 12 minute ride and weren't for a HSQ. I would not be one of them. I don't mind long slow lifts if they access 1500 vert of decent pitch. Spear is more like 800 with 300 of run out. Fun skiing, but a long ride for such short terrain.

 

[skiadikt]

Hmmmmmm skiing sure was good today!

a-basin?

 

[snoseek]

a-basin?

Yeah. We need a hijack.

 

[WWF-VT]

Their on snow product has had little change, Win wont even answer my questions on how much has been spent on base improvement vs on snow. The silence is deafening.

Why do you think Win should feel obligated to answer your questions ?

Call me a Sugarbush homer because I am one. I'm invested in the mountain as a passholder, property owner and my family partipcates in seasonal programs. There is no other mountain that I can think of where the principal owner is on the mountain most every day and meets with his customers regularly. In the fall there is a community day where he presents the updated mountain plan to the community and he regularly responds on the SkiMRV Forum.

 

[HowieT2]

All the guy did was offer an opinion...
And you all just jumped all over him...

For real.. You may not agree but don't rip into him..

Is this a place where people can offer opinions?
Or is a place where you get shut down and ridiculed when offering an opinion?

but his opinion is completely uninformed. Tin would be the first one to vote for increased snow making capacity, but the capital improvements they are undertaking are unarguably, a higher priority. They may not do anything for the guy who boots up in the lot and heads right to the lift or even for someone such as me who has little use for equipment rentals and or kids ski school. But for the majority of visitors and specifically the families who they want to return for more visits and or become regulars, the buildings are vitally important. Dealing with ski school and rentals is a process fraught with frustration under the best of circumstances. Doing it in inadequate facilities can ruin the experience of being at the mtn. There can be perfect snow under bluebird skies, but if your stuck renting equipment in a packed tent and dropping your kids off to a chaotic ski school, your not going to want to come back for more. The new facilities are vital so that the casual skier and family can enjoy the on mtn experience throughout the season. any investment in snowmaking capacity would at best, improve the skiing a few days a year. and it's not like they haven't been making incremental improvements to the snowmaking (low e-guns, strategy) and they certainly have added significant glades. again the latter benefiting the "tourist" skier more than the regulars since we were skiing those anyway.

as for the homer thing-there are many issues that we can complain about. for example, personally, I think it's a mistake not to include the day care in the new ski school building. But criticizing the new buildings in favor of investing in snowmaking capacity or railing against it as RE development, is inane.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

All the guy did was offer an opinion...
And you all just jumped all over him...

For real.. You may not agree but don't rip into him..

Is this a place where people can offer opinions?
Or is a place where you get shut down and ridiculed when offering an opinion?

dmc -

Howie pretty much covered it, but I certainly don't have a problem with AR or anyone offering their opinions. It's a free country. But that's not what he did. Look at the words you quoted. That's as inaccurate as me coming in here and saying I still think that Hunter should stop focusing its marketing efforts on snobs from Greenwich.

You would likely point out that they don't focus their marketing efforts on snobs from Greenwich and you can't understand where I got that impression. Is it then appropriate for me to reply, "well that's just my opinion and you can't change that, you Hunter homer!"

Because AR's entire thesis was similarly misplaced as it pertains to SB. Yes, the ski industry seems to be moving bodily away from real-estate development as a driving force during these economic times (as if they have a choice). And I certainly agree with him that this is a very positive development - it is (or at least should be) about the skiing. So the irony is that we agree on this broader point.

That said, is it not fair for others who are more familiar with the situation to point out that SB is not, in fact, concentrating on real-estate development? Surely you see the difference between replacing an interim skier services complex consisting of tents and double wides on the one hand, and the construction of a new residential real-estate project on the other. Right? Do those two things have anything to do with each other besides having 4 walls and a roof?

All Sugarbush has done has spent money on phase 1 (massive real estate development) and now phase 2, which is amenities for said real estate development, which in my mind is just a direct extension of real estate.

I thought I'd re-quote this so you could see why people are reacting. There are two statements in the sentence above, both of which are clearly and demonstrably false. Why is it unacceptable to point out where he is dead wrong? The final fragment is certainly an opinion, and that's about all I can say for it.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I've been letting this one ride out but come on dude, you're preaching to the choir on this one. Their "on snow" product? The place and snow speaks for itself. What else is there to improve? ASC pumped 27 Million into the place in 1996. They could use some more uphill pumping capacity but other than that the snowmaking is absolutely fine and every season has shown that time and time again.

What they HAVE fallen behind on is on mountain real estate and they are correcting that. I think any skier in the east would rank them right up their with Stowe, Jay and the Loaf overall. They haven't fallen behind at all...

Indeed, their on snow product is so inferior, they've consistently grown their skier visits since Summit Ventures bought the place.

 

[dmc]

but his opinion is completely uninformed.

So that means people can just jump all over him?!?!?!

Come on people - your all better then that...

 

[Greg]

 

[dmc]

dmc -

Howie pretty much covered it, but I certainly don't have a problem with AR or anyone offering their opinions. It's a free country. But that's not what he did. Look at the words you quoted. That's as inaccurate as me coming in here and saying I still think that Hunter should stop focusing its marketing efforts on snobs from Greenwich.

So..? It's still his opinion..

Unless someone bold face lies and says something is fact about Hunter - I won't get too upset. Maybe come back with my own opinion...

I do think Hunter should concentrate more on on mountain experience.. And less on hotels and condos.. But thats my opinion.. and it's not shared by everyone - but i don't put the hammer down on these people... I actually ask for more details on why they think such things...

"Seek first to understand and then to be understood"

 

[MrMagic]

wow ten pages and no one has brought up the improvements at ski sundown yet?

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I still think Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further behind.

That being said, Gore's new development could potentially have the largest impact of all, I think they still need a lift to downtown North Creek to reach the top. That and way more snowmaking capacity.

Not a very well informed opinion for a guy who has said you have not skied at Sugarbush in a few years.

The two new buildings they are erecting this summer are a huge improvement and there is no real estate development included in this phase. That being said, what about real estate development done right would be so bad?
what about the "on mountain experience" needs investment? snowmaking capacity?

The latest base development is not a real estate winner. It is improving facilities. There are no condos in it. Just an improvement in guest services.


As for being in the back of the pack, I'd say... Which pack? I ask people how their day was, throughout the season. Almost always the answer is great.

You can't please everyone, but I think their average is pretty good. ;-)

Bush homers wont phase me. Ive skied there plenty and from what win himself and others have posted, have a pretty good idea of what theyve improved and havent improved over the two seasons since I last skied there. I have my opinion, you have yours. But if makes you feel better to get all uppity, so be it.

dmc -

I'm sorry, but that's not exactly how it went down. Quoted above are AR's original post plus the three responses to that post. All of those responses are civil and factual, with the most inflammatory thing I can find being someone who said his opinion was uninformed (which was subsequently illustrated pretty clearly). Far from jumping on him, the context was entirely civil, until his response where he starts calling people homers and accusing them of getting uppity. Me thinks someone has a bit of a persecution complex. He's the internet message board equivalent of the kid who kills his parents and then asks the judge for leniency b/c he's an orphan.

He spewed a completely uninformed opinion and then took offense when it was pointed out he was incorrect as pertained to SB. I'm struggling to find where he got jumped on for this opinion prior to him getting aggro himself.

 

[AdironRider]

I still dont see how I was incorrect, noting that commercial real estate, is still real estate, but to each their own. But keep on keepin on Tin, were obviously not going to see eye to eye on this, so get over it. (which I have mentioned about 5 times so far in this thread but you cant seem to back down yourself)

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I still dont see how I was incorrect, noting that commercial real estate, is still real estate, but to each their own. But keep on keepin on Tin, were obviously not going to see eye to eye on this, so get over it. (which I have mentioned about 5 times so far in this thread but you cant seem to back down yourself)

It's easy to be correct when you keep moving the goal posts.

You still sure they've done nothing but invest in real estate since they bought the mountain? You were absolutely certain just yesterday.

How about their investment in "glitzy real-estate" this year? You still sure that's just nothing but an amenity for the Clay Brook owners? You wrote that with such conviction what seems like only moments ago.

Interesting how you're no longer trying to push that story while claiming to be the innocent victim of all the evil SB homers ganging up on you.

What a fraud.

 

[andrec10]

I feel a GrilledSteezeSandwich Coming on!!!:wink:

 

[dmc]

dmc -

I'm sorry, but that's not exactly how it went down. Quoted above are AR's original post plus the three responses to that post. All of those responses are civil and factual, with the most inflammatory thing I can find being someone who said his opinion was uninformed (which was subsequently illustrated pretty clearly). Far from jumping on him, the context was entirely civil, until his response where he starts calling people homers and accusing them of getting uppity. Me thinks someone has a bit of a persecution complex. He's the internet message board equivalent of the kid who kills his parents and then asks the judge for leniency b/c he's an orphan.

He spewed a completely uninformed opinion and then took offense when it was pointed out he was incorrect as pertained to SB. I'm struggling to find where he got jumped on for this opinion prior to him getting aggro himself.

Your conveniently missing this one - which basically says...He hasn't been around so his opinion is suspect.. Which kinda sets the tenor of the conversation.

Haven't you been in Jackson Hole for the past few years? What are you basing this opinion on?

 

[AdironRider]

Talk about moving the goalposts, where did I say the only thing theyve invested is in real estate? I just said they need to stop investing in real estate. Break out the quotes if need be