Keep Killington Open Longer

[RootDKJ]

Probably not. Not even ASC or POWDR, I'd guess. But what's the cost of running 1 lift, 5 hours a day (10-3), for two days? 3 people staffing for 6 hours @ $20/ hour (including overhead,) call it $800 in staffing. 900hp motor, 12 hours of operation, $0.25/kw-hr, $2K. Throw in another $1K in there for whatever. Under $5K for the weekend. What the hell, double it. $10K.

All they need to lose is 10 unlimited passholders to make it not break even. Or not sell 150 day tickets. Or 5 passholders and 40 weekend guests. That isn't that much, considering the additional mess that it created with parking. There are other obstacles besides cost here which, given the turnaround on Ramshead the week prior, I'm guessing were the deciding factor (finding the people to actually do the work, ski patrol, etc.) but I have a feeling that other mountains would have figured something out. I mean, how much credit would they get for having Nyberg & co. bumping chairs for a couple hours on the weekend? "Plans were to close, but we knew how much you wanted it, so everyone on the team chipped in."

When was the last time Kmart/Powdr did the season passholders a solid? And I'm not talking about correcting some of their early mistakes.

 

[Black Phantom]

Probably not. Not even ASC or POWDR, I'd guess. But what's the cost of running 1 lift, 5 hours a day (10-3), for two days? 3 people staffing for 6 hours @ $20/ hour (including overhead,) call it $800 in staffing. 900hp motor, 12 hours of operation, $0.25/kw-hr, $2K. Throw in another $1K in there for whatever. Under $5K for the weekend. What the hell, double it. $10K.

All they need to lose is 10 unlimited passholders to make it not break even. Or not sell 150 day tickets. Or 5 passholders and 40 weekend guests. That isn't that much, considering the additional mess that it created with parking. There are other obstacles besides cost here which, given the turnaround on Ramshead the week prior, I'm guessing were the deciding factor (finding the people to actually do the work, ski patrol, etc.) but I have a feeling that other mountains would have figured something out. I mean, how much credit would they get for having Nyberg & co. bumping chairs for a couple hours on the weekend? "Plans were to close, but we knew how much you wanted it, so everyone on the team chipped in."

He was at Augusta.

 

[drjeff]

Can you measure the advertising factor as opposed to just straight profitablity? Don't have anything to back it up, but have to guess that model amounted to many more season passes being sold.

I don't have an answer, but I will say that looking at day ticket sales/F&B revenue won't produce an accurate picture regardless of the result. There are so many other factors that can't easily be quantified. How many seasons passes did they sell simply because they could be used from October to June when the season at other mountains was 2+ months shorter? I would venture to guess quite a few. How many people came back to K mid-winter after enjoying the early/late season product? Real estate purchases due to long season? Skier visits based on K's reputation as the Beast that was created largely by their long seasons? I could go on, but the fact is there are many more variables at play in determining whether a late season strategy is profitable other than day to day profit and loss.

True, but nowadays, even before the new K "early" shutdown of recent, aren't there more ski areas trying to go a bit longer than used to be, and as such spreading that already small market around to the point where some of those folks who might have bought a pass a K because of the longer season are now buying a pass at a different mountain that might be their home mountain or closer to their residence??

It's not all daysheet info for sure. But the daysheets do play a significant roll in the final descsion of when to pull the plug for the season, especially in todays season pass world where many resorts now have you locked into the next season to get the best price MONTHS before you used to have to make that descision

 

[Black Phantom]

True, but nowadays, even before the new K "early" shutdown of recent, aren't there more ski areas trying to go a bit longer than used to be, and as such spreading that already small market around to the point where some of those folks who might have bought a pass a K because of the longer season are now buying a pass at a different mountain that might be their home mountain or closer to their residence??

It's not all daysheet info for sure. But the daysheets do play a significant roll in the final descsion of when to pull the plug for the season, especially in todays season pass world where many resorts now have you locked into the next season to get the best price MONTHS before you used to have to make that descision

How did you make out with your beloved gameshow derby box?

 

[skiadikt]

Serious question here. Does anyone REALLY know if the "old" K model of late season "ski until total meltout" operations was VERY profitable vs. "just break even"???

fwiw here's an excerpt from an interview pres smith gave a few yrs ago:

Smith: I think we hit an interesting chord in the skier when we began to extend the season with our early opening and late closing.

I guess last but not least our understanding of the sport. I think that we had a good perception of what would satisfy the skier and the potential skier and one of those things is the ever-changing variety of terrain.

Q: What's your proudest accomplishment?

Smith: I guess understanding the sport and providing something for everyone, which culminated in 24 lifts and 141 trails, excluding Pico.

The Skye Ship (Route 4 to Skye Peak) was no means low on the list. It was the first heated lift. That replaced the original 3-1/2 mile gondola. The heated cabins and the art in the sky. We really had some interesting artists do the work on those cabins and between that and its being the fastest and most comfortable gondola in the world at that particular time.

Again, extending the season, I think Killington lent itself to the long season to begin with. A very well defined bowl (Killington basin) facing northeast, the highest elevation skiing in Vermont, it really was obvious that extending the season would be worthwhile.

Q: Was that done for marketing purposes because the number of skiers drop toward the end of the season?

Smith: No. Because if you extend the season on both ends you have many more days of income. We had mostly year-round employees to begin with. Every dollar that came in the extended shoulders of the season was a plus on the bottom line.

 

[roark]

Q: Was that done for marketing purposes because the number of skiers drop toward the end of the season?

Smith: No. Because if you extend the season on both ends you have many more days of income. We had mostly year-round employees to begin with. Every dollar that came in the extended shoulders of the season was a plus on the bottom line.

The bolded part kinda jumped at me...

 

[Riverskier]

True, but nowadays, even before the new K "early" shutdown of recent, aren't there more ski areas trying to go a bit longer than used to be, and as such spreading that already small market around to the point where some of those folks who might have bought a pass a K because of the longer season are now buying a pass at a different mountain that might be their home mountain or closer to their residence??

It's not all daysheet info for sure. But the daysheets do play a significant roll in the final descsion of when to pull the plug for the season, especially in todays season pass world where many resorts now have you locked into the next season to get the best price MONTHS before you used to have to make that descision

I don't have all of the answers, nor I am going to pretend to. :smile: I just strongly contend that there is a LOT more involved in determining whether a late season strategy is successful than simply looking at the daysheets. In fact I would go so far as to say that it is only the tip of the iceburg. I will leave the actual analysis to the resort operators. Boyne seems to think it is worthwhile though, and I think that is one of the biggest reasons that Boyne customers are for the most part happy. I mentioned this in another thread somewhere, but they pretty much have me locked in as a seasons pass holder with the October to May season. If they drastically reduced that, there are other viable options I would consider. While some may feel tied to the resorts, I suspect there are others that feel the same way, and that is not reflected on the daysheets.

 

[2knees]

I don't have all of the answers, nor I am going to pretend to. :smile:

why not, everybody else has them......

 

[deadheadskier]

The bolded part kinda jumped at me...

I have read that for Pres Smith, offering people year round jobs with benefits was a tremendous point of pride for him.

 

[drjeff]

fwiw here's an excerpt from an interview pres smith gave a few yrs ago:

Smith: I think we hit an interesting chord in the skier when we began to extend the season with our early opening and late closing.

I guess last but not least our understanding of the sport. I think that we had a good perception of what would satisfy the skier and the potential skier and one of those things is the ever-changing variety of terrain.

Q: What's your proudest accomplishment?

Smith: I guess understanding the sport and providing something for everyone, which culminated in 24 lifts and 141 trails, excluding Pico.

The Skye Ship (Route 4 to Skye Peak) was no means low on the list. It was the first heated lift. That replaced the original 3-1/2 mile gondola. The heated cabins and the art in the sky. We really had some interesting artists do the work on those cabins and between that and its being the fastest and most comfortable gondola in the world at that particular time.

Again, extending the season, I think Killington lent itself to the long season to begin with. A very well defined bowl (Killington basin) facing northeast, the highest elevation skiing in Vermont, it really was obvious that extending the season would be worthwhile.

Q: Was that done for marketing purposes because the number of skiers drop toward the end of the season?

Smith: No. Because if you extend the season on both ends you have many more days of income. We had mostly year-round employees to begin with. Every dollar that came in the extended shoulders of the season was a plus on the bottom line.

Can we atleast agree that the overall ski industry of 2011 is far different from the ski industry of the Pres Smith era?? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.

I'm not saying that it's the right thing or the wrong thing, just that it's a different thing

 

[andyzee]

Can we atleast agree that the overall ski industry of 2011 is far different from the ski industry of the Pres Smith era?? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.

I'm not saying that it's the right thing or the wrong thing, just that it's a different thing

Can we atleast agree that the overall customer relations in 2011 are far dirrerent from the customer relations of the Pres Smith era? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.

I'm am saying that it is wrong the way people are treated, not only in the ski industry but overall, please press 1 if you disagree. What I am also saying is, do we just sit around and take it, or do we do something about it?

 

[drjeff]

How did you make out with your beloved gameshow derby box?

Thanks for asking, we had a great time, received the coveted hand made by the GM fruit and cheese platter, and slid about as far as we had planned to this year

 

[Black Phantom]

Thanks for asking, we had a great time, received the coveted hand made by the GM fruit and cheese platter, and slid about as far as we had planned to this year

Sweet. I looked on the Snow website but did not see any mention of the results. You guys put a hell of a lot of effort into it. I hope the platter came with some vino!

 

[drjeff]

Can we atleast agree that the overall customer relations in 2011 are far dirrerent from the customer relations of the Pres Smith era? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.

I'm am saying that it is wrong the way people are treated, not only in the ski industry but overall, please press 1 if you disagree. What I am also saying is, do we just sit around and take it, or do we do something about it?

Unfortunately (in many instances atleast) Andy, the ski industry, just like many sectors of industry nowadays is far more corporate than it used to be. And it's the corporate nature verses the former "mom and pop" nature (and in a way when Pres Smith was running K, and even SKI Ltd it was still a "mom and pop" type business) that often dictates the descisions over the emotional descisions of the past. If K gets say 500 complaints about this, to Powdr, 500 may not be that many given that company wide they do millions of skier/rider vists per year. Because bottomline is that until literally thousands of passholders leave K, and/or a year in and year out challenger in CENTRAL to SOUTHERN VT or NY tries to dramatically extend the season (and gathers the attention of the "lucrative" New York metropolitan area market) K is still the only game in town, within reasonable driving distance, for a reliable (atleast if the weather cooperates) 6 month season for that NY market, and it still gets some traffic from the Boston metro area too.

From a business side, the old addage that 2% of customers often create 98% of the problems tends to be true. And just the fact that in online forums like this one, that K threads almost always become LONG ones speaks to the passion that so many have for K. And good, bad, or indifferent, when you have a customer base that has that much passion for a place/product, most managers know that even if you do piss some of that core, passionate customer base off a bit, they'll almost always still come back. And when they do come back, for the vast majority of the season, they're finding a product that in many ways is much better than what ASC was providing, even if that product is "only" available for a shorter time. The view of things from that of a business owner verses that of a customer tends to be quite different, more often than the customer may think

 

[mediamogul]

Can we atleast agree that the overall customer relations in 2011 are far dirrerent from the customer relations of the Pres Smith era? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.

I'm am saying that it is wrong the way people are treated, not only in the ski industry but overall, please press 1 if you disagree. What I am also saying is, do we just sit around and take it, or do we do something about it?

I certainly agree. Also it seems as though this model of cookie cutter skiing in the vein of Okemo, Stratton, etc seems to be expanding and taking over. Endless condos, endless grooming, widening of trails, blunting all rough edges in the name of creating a very tame and processed ski experience. If K skiers jump ship on their mountain instead of resisting these changes then eventually all mountains may become this way. I for one am much more upset about Bear being closed than the May 1st closing. It is very apparent that the current owners have a very different view of skiers and skiing than in the Pres Smith era. K was a badass mountain under that ownership and I would like to see it get there again. K skiers should make their voices heard.

 

[drjeff]

Sweet. I looked on the Snow website but did not see any mention of the results. You guys put a hell of a lot of effort into it. I hope the platter came with some vino!

No vino on the platter, but there were a couple of tokens that were usable at the winter brewer's fest this past Saturday :beer:

And we've already got next years theme and some sled design ideas figured out! :lol:

 

[mediamogul]

Unfortunately (in many instances atleast) Andy, the ski industry, just like many sectors of industry nowadays is far more corporate than it used to be. And it's the corporate nature verses the former "mom and pop" nature (and in a way when Pres Smith was running K, and even SKI Ltd it was still a "mom and pop" type business) that often dictates the descisions over the emotional descisions of the past. If K gets say 500 complaints about this, to Powdr, 500 may not be that many given that company wide they do millions of skier/rider vists per year. Because bottomline is that until literally thousands of passholders leave K, and/or a year in and year out challenger in CENTRAL to SOUTHERN VT or NY tries to dramatically extend the season (and gathers the attention of the "lucrative" New York metropolitan area market) K is still the only game in town, within reasonable driving distance, for a reliable (atleast if the weather cooperates) 6 month season for that NY market, and it still gets some traffic from the Boston metro area too.

From a business side, the old addage that 2% of customers often create 98% of the problems tends to be true. And just the fact that in online forums like this one, that K threads almost always become LONG ones speaks to the passion that so many have for K. And good, bad, or indifferent, when you have a customer base that has that much passion for a place/product, most managers know that even if you do piss some of that core, passionate customer base off a bit, they'll almost always still come back. And when they do come back, for the vast majority of the season, they're finding a product that in many ways is much better than what ASC was providing, even if that product is "only" available for a shorter time. The view of things from that of a business owner verses that of a customer tends to be quite different, more often than the customer may think

It would be interesting for someone to do a rough tally of how many skier visits per year could be attributed to season pass holders. Also, how many passholders does K currently have total? Does anyone have that statistic? This may give some perspective as to how much of K's capital and skier traffic is attributable to passholders.

 

[andyzee]

Unfortunately (in many instances atleast) Andy, the ski industry, just like many sectors of industry nowadays is far more corporate than it used to be. And it's the corporate nature verses the former "mom and pop" nature (and in a way when Pres Smith was running K, and even SKI Ltd it was still a "mom and pop" type business) that often dictates the descisions over the emotional descisions of the past. If K gets say 500 complaints about this, to Powdr, 500 may not be that many given that company wide they do millions of skier/rider vists per year. Because bottomline is that until literally thousands of passholders leave K, and/or a year in and year out challenger in CENTRAL to SOUTHERN VT or NY tries to dramatically extend the season (and gathers the attention of the "lucrative" New York metropolitan area market) K is still the only game in town, within reasonable driving distance, for a reliable (atleast if the weather cooperates) 6 month season for that NY market, and it still gets some traffic from the Boston metro area too.

From a business side, the old addage that 2% of customers often create 98% of the problems tends to be true. And just the fact that in online forums like this one, that K threads almost always become LONG ones speaks to the passion that so many have for K. And good, bad, or indifferent, when you have a customer base that has that much passion for a place/product, most managers know that even if you do piss some of that core, passionate customer base off a bit, they'll almost always still come back. And when they do come back, for the vast majority of the season, they're finding a product that in many ways is much better than what ASC was providing, even if that product is "only" available for a shorter time. The view of things from that of a business owner verses that of a customer tends to be quite different, more often than the customer may think

I'm sorry doc, but I have to disagree. Corporations have been around for ages and they have listened. Granted, they have grown in some respects and gotten rid of competition, but that doesn't mean they can't be swayed. I believe the bigger issue is that as a society we have become far to complacent. As a result, corporations now do as they please and get away with it due to attitudes such as the one you are now displaying (no offense intended). You say 500 complaints won't matter to a company such as this, what if those 500 complaints also state that they won't be buying season passes anymore, that would be in access of $500,000 that the corporation would not be making. That number could easily spread to others.

When Powdr came rolling into town, they figured they were the big guys on the block and can do whatever they please. Well guess what, when it came to getting permits to build out a villiage, that was quickly nixed by the town. I'm sure less than 500 people influenced this decision. Powdr quickly changed their tune and next year made ammends with the town and tried to worked with vendors to provide more business in the form of promotions. Now, what happens if some of those same town folks (shop keepers) start seeing less traffic. What do you think they will do the next time Powdr applies for permits? No doc, sorry but I disagree, not only can we sway corporations, but we need to sway them to keep them from thinking they can do as they please.

 

[snoseek]

Fact of the matter is you're not gonna get the old Killington you once knew back, thats life.....i feel for all you die hards, really I do. This would be a great opportunity to move around and become a regular somewhere else however. There are plenty of other options in the Northeast, unless you're somehow tied to the hill via property then by all means do it. I feel no needs to suggest where to go because y'all already probably have an idea.

If it geographically doesn't work for you and it's THAT important, then maybe you should work on a plan to relocate to somewhere else closer. You CAN still have a life/career somewhere else. If it truly is that important than you will take control of your skiing dollars vs. hoping Powdr will see the light.

 

[AdironRider]

I think this thread has plenty of evidence showing how those 500 complainers arent going to stop buying season passes.

You guys have a 180 day season this year. Thats half the year. November 2nd (or was it 4th? either way) to May 1st. On the east coast. Supposedly the product has been great all year long. I know it was opening week when I was there.

But Bear closed a week early you say! This travershamockery will not stand. The pass holders will revolt!

...but not really,

Next up on the complaint list is the grooming. Then its somehow the death of the BMMC (which I think is dead for much more other than no booze being allowed from outside), then its the interconnect, then its lawsuits for all of the above.

The point is you cant cry about everything as if its the greatest travesty in the history of skiing. The sport will never be the same because Bear shut down a week ahead of your schedule.

You guys had Pres Smith 20 years ago. Stuff is different now. Im willing to bet insurance was alot cheaper back then. Terrain parks? Thats a bunch more snow to blow on top of the 141 trails you got there. Take all that terrain park snow and put it on Superstar. You get a glacier. Good for Pres he could justify having a bunch of year round employees, no one can disagree thats not the best business move in the SKI industry.

Were things better for you back in the day? Of course they were. It was for me too, it was for everybody. That story was better back in the day.

And everyones armchair quarterbacking about the costs of running a lift(s?), staff, lodge (even just tickets and bathrooms) is laughable. Yeah it only costs like 120 bucks man, a lifty, a ski patroller, and a guy at the bar man, thats all you need. Sure it does, two lift tickets and your golden.