Keep Killington Open Longer

[mondeo]

I think this thread has plenty of evidence showing how those 500 complainers arent going to stop buying season passes.

You guys have a 180 day season this year. Thats half the year. November 2nd (or was it 4th? either way) to May 1st. On the east coast. Supposedly the product has been great all year long. I know it was opening week when I was there.

But Bear closed a week early you say! This travershamockery will not stand. The pass holders will revolt!

...but not really,

Next up on the complaint list is the grooming. Then its somehow the death of the BMMC (which I think is dead for much more other than no booze being allowed from outside), then its the interconnect, then its lawsuits for all of the above.

The point is you cant cry about everything as if its the greatest travesty in the history of skiing. The sport will never be the same because Bear shut down a week ahead of your schedule.

You guys had Pres Smith 20 years ago. Stuff is different now. Im willing to bet insurance was alot cheaper back then. Terrain parks? Thats a bunch more snow to blow on top of the 141 trails you got there. Take all that terrain park snow and put it on Superstar. You get a glacier. Good for Pres he could justify having a bunch of year round employees, no one can disagree thats not the best business move in the SKI industry.

Were things better for you back in the day? Of course they were. It was for me too, it was for everybody. That story was better back in the day.

And everyones armchair quarterbacking about the costs of running a lift(s?), staff, lodge (even just tickets and bathrooms) is laughable. Yeah it only costs like 120 bucks man, a lifty, a ski patroller, and a guy at the bar man, thats all you need. Sure it does, two lift tickets and your golden.

Why did you ever crawl out of your hole?

Who the hell is crying here? Venting, complaining, sure. Crying, whining? That's a bit extreme. Maybe the lawsuit talk qualifies. But most are being fairly honest here. There's no question business levels have dropped. You think BMMC died before POWDR took over? Check the pictures from 2007 to 2008 to 2009. Party, a few people trying desperately to party, dead. People have moved on, people have dropped from unlimited to blackout, people have dropped F&B spending.

Again, what are we supposed to do if the operation of the place isn't to our liking, but it isn't enough to make another option better? Just stay quiet? If they lose less than 50 season passes because of closing Bear with full coverage, that will never show up in the books as clearly a result of their decision. It's too small, though enough to make it a bad decision financially. Bear being closed with that much snow had a significant impact on the vibe on the hill last weekend. Saturday should have been one of the best days of the season, perfect spring skiing weather, but the only good non-woods trail for spring skiing was Royal Flush, and that was half dirt. People were complaining on a 50° bluebird day with nearly full coverage. During the month most will buy season passes.

Maybe a good corporation would actually listen to their customers instead of just feeding them a line about business levels being too low to run another lift. You couldn't find a parking spot after 11. Lift lines were as long as many mid season days. I didn't even bother trying to get a beer and sit out on the deck because it was too packed. Instead I left and had a couple in the parking lot. Not enough people my ass.

Have a dialog. An honest conversation. Nobody's expecting them to blow a glacier to last to mid-June, most would be happy with a reasonable effort to make May 1st 80% of the time and then close when they have to. Close Monday-Thursday from next weekend out. Close Bear when the skiing quality drops below amazing to just really good. Fine. But every once in a while, show a tiny amount of appreciation for your passholders, don't just expect them to take what you give them and like it because the mountain has such a natural advantage over all others that they aren't going to leave.

 

[neil]

They really do seem to shot themselves in the foot every year.

The walkway/start of the season was a good sign, but would it have killed them to just go "Bear was supposed to closed today, but the snow is so good that we can't do it. One more weekend!".

Would have created a lot of goodwill I think.

 

[deadheadskier]

They really do seem to shot themselves in the foot every year.

The walkway/start of the season was a good sign, but would it have killed them to just go "Bear was supposed to closed today, but the snow is so good that we can't do it. One more weekend!".

Would have created a lot of goodwill I think.

Under promise and over deliver. Always a great business decision IMO.

Last seasons closing was the antithesis of that.

You know, maybe the complaints will actually be heard and K will stay open through the 8th. That would be sweet for me. Killington is a much easier drive than Sugarloaf, even from coastal New Hampshire.

 

[khjr]

I can't wait for the Harvard Business Review case study that examines how POWDR modifies its business model based upon the threat of a lawsuit from bitching season pass holders.

I can tell you from personal experience that an uncontested mediated divorce can easily cost over $15K in legal fees. How much can it cost POWDR to defend itself, and pay damages if the suit proceeds to the extent of a settlement, either in or out of court? How much do you think it costs to keep a lift open for a weekend, or to be more specific in the season pass contracts?

Those are the makings of a business case right there.

The lawsuit has to happen at least once for the threat to be perceived as having measurable probability (i.e. risk weighted into a business case). When you look at other lawsuits that have prevailed (use your imagination), this one's not that far-fetched.

 

[Edd]

Of the many K complaint threads, this is one of the most mature I can remember. Pretty straight talk, much of which is reasonable on both sides. Hope Kmart takes note of this.

 

[WWF-VT]

I can tell you from personal experience that an uncontested mediated divorce can easily cost over $15K in legal fees. How much can it cost POWDR to defend itself, and pay damages if the suit proceeds to the extent of a settlement, either in or out of court? How much do you think it costs to keep a lift open for a weekend, or to be more specific in the season pass contracts?

Those are the makings of a business case right there.

The lawsuit has to happen at least once for the threat to be perceived as having measurable probability (i.e. risk weighted into a business case). When you look at other lawsuits that have prevailed (use your imagination), this one's not that far-fetched.

Can I suggest a lawyer to take the case....?

 

[mondeo]

I can tell you from personal experience that an uncontested mediated divorce can easily cost over $15K in legal fees. How much can it cost POWDR to defend itself, and pay damages if the suit proceeds to the extent of a settlement, either in or out of court? How much do you think it costs to keep a lift open for a weekend, or to be more specific in the season pass contracts?

Those are the makings of a business case right there.

The lawsuit has to happen at least once for the threat to be perceived as having measurable probability (i.e. risk weighted into a business case). When you look at other lawsuits that have prevailed (use your imagination), this one's not that far-fetched.

You're assuming a judge wouldn't take one look at the complaint and issue a summary judgement.

 

[khjr]

What you seem to be saying is: for all its faults, you still haven't found a better option than Killington. I mean, if there were something better, a far more sensible approach would be to take your skiing dollars elsewhere.

I mean, if I'm served a poor dinner at a local restaurant, I don't sue or complain about the business model. I just go to another restaurant next time. There are plenty of great restaurants. I don't waste time bemoaning the bad ones.

All of this griping about Killington suggests a contradiction: although it's not what we want, it's still better than most (or indeed all) of the alternatives.

Well said, and I agree with much of your argument.

The difference here, I think, is that ski resorts seem to be more like an oligopoly (for some of us, Killington is a local utility!) Whether you agree entirely or not with that premise, it’s clear that they’re not subject to the same degree of free market forces that restaurants are – there just isn’t enough competition readily accessible to the buyer.

That can become a one-sided relationship pretty quickly. All I’m talking about here is a mechanism of putting some balance back into that relationship.

 

[khjr]

You're assuming a judge wouldn't take one look at the complaint and issue a summary judgement.

There’s definitely the potential for a summary judgment. It could easily take POWDR years to get one, however.

For example, the 2010 summary judgment dismissing the case of the lifetime pass holders took roughly three years to achieve. I don’t claim to be a contingency lawyer specializing in class action lawsuits (certainly no Lionel Hutz!) but, to this layman, it appears that the merits of the aforementioned lawsuit were even weaker than those which we’re discussing now.

All the while, POWDR would have the lawsuit pending (hanging over its head), with legal expenses and potential loss factored into its business model.

 

[drjeff]

There’s definitely the potential for a summary judgment. It could easily take POWDR years to get one, however.

For example, the 2010 summary judgment dismissing the case of the lifetime pass holders took roughly three years to achieve. I don’t claim to be a contingency lawyer specializing in class action lawsuits (certainly no Lionel Hutz!) but, to this layman, it appears that the merits of the aforementioned lawsuit were even weaker than those which we’re discussing now.

All the while, POWDR would have the lawsuit pending (hanging over its head), with legal expenses and potential loss factored into its business model.

Are you REALLY trying to say that a PRIVATE company closing Bear a bit early and choosing to shut down before all the snow melts out is even remotely similiar to the case that many "lifetime" bond/passholders made about an agreement that was initially made 40+ years and multiple changes of owners ago?? And as such legal action should be considered??

 

[RootDKJ]

Are you REALLY trying to say that a PRIVATE company closing Bear a bit early and choosing to shut down before all the snow melts out is even remotely similiar to the case that many "lifetime" bond/passholders made about an agreement that was initially made 40+ years and multiple changes of owners ago?? And as such legal action should be considered??

 

[oakapple]

Ski resorts seem to be more like an oligopoly (for some of us, Killington is a local utility!) Whether you agree entirely or not with that premise, it’s clear that they’re not subject to the same degree of free market forces that restaurants are – there just isn’t enough competition readily accessible to the buyer.

I agree with you, to a considerable extent. Killington has some natural advantages (size, weather, elevation) that have nothing to do with who operates it. Even with the most enlightened management, most places could never be Killington. Most of its infrastructure (lifts, trails, lodges, snowmaking, parking) predated current management, and couldn't easily be duplicated elsewhere. Even if POWDR never spent another cent on capital improvements, Killington would retain these advantages for many years to come. Of course, there is also geography: the only other even remotely comparable ski areas are a considerable distance away.

There’s definitely the potential for a summary judgment. It could easily take POWDR years to get one, however.

For example, the 2010 summary judgment dismissing the case of the lifetime pass holders took roughly three years to achieve. I don’t claim to be a contingency lawyer specializing in class action lawsuits (certainly no Lionel Hutz!) but, to this layman, it appears that the merits of the aforementioned lawsuit were even weaker than those which we’re discussing now.

All the while, POWDR would have the lawsuit pending (hanging over its head), with legal expenses and potential loss factored into its business model.

The lifetime pass holders, although they ultimately lost, had a valid point: they were promised lifetime access. No one was ever promised that Bear Mountain would remain open for a couple of extra weeks. Throughout the ski industry, large mountains gradually close terrain at the tail end of the season; it is far more common than not. It's not going to take three years for a court to figure that out.

In the end, all you'd gain is a few more sentences of fine print on next year's season pass application, making clearer what is already implied: they can close whenever the hell they want.

 

[dmc]

The lifetime pass holders, although they ultimately lost, had a valid point: they were promised lifetime access.

What does a "lifetime" mean? Life of the company? Life of the ski area? Life of the owner?

Always seemed ambiguous to me...

 

[oakapple]

What does a "lifetime" mean? Life of the company? Life of the ski area? Life of the owner?

Always seemed ambiguous to me...

That's why they lost.

 

[dmc]

That's why they lost.

Caveat emptor...

 

[Black Phantom]

Caveat emptor...

So I guess all these dudes at Magic buying their shares are just waiting to get the inevitable backside sausage?

Someone better tell them quickly.

 

[threecy]

It seems odd to me to try to scapegoat 'corporations' for some of the decisions made at Killington and then compare to Pres Smith when, in fact, Killington was corporately owned and operated when he was there.

 

[mondeo]

It seems odd to me to try to scapegoat 'corporations' for some of the decisions made at Killington and then compare to Pres Smith when, in fact, Killington was corporately owned and operated when he was there.

Doesn't seem odd to me. People love to scapegoat corporations whenever possible. They're faceless entities.

 

[roark]

So I guess all these dudes at Magic buying their shares are just waiting to get the inevitable backside sausage?

Someone better tell them quickly.

Similar to MRG a share at Magic doesn't get you much more than the satisfaction of helping to sustain the mountain and a vote in shareholder meetings. No lifetime pass.

 

[Black Phantom]

Doesn't seem odd to me. People love to scapegoat corporations whenever possible. They're faceless entities.

Wasn't SKI a publicly traded company with a visible Management Team and a Board of Directors?

Take a look at this website and tell me you do not want to puke.

www.powdr.com